THOMAS GOLTZ - EXPOSES THE ARMENIANS GENOCIDE OF AZERI'S Options

[Yerevan]

Since I'm banned from the Turkey section, check mv's post in "Who are GREY WOLF "Bozkurt" thread. It will tell you how pure Turkish territory it is.

[Azeri]

What an unbiast website. That's it you've convinced me.


Like I said. If you're going to call it a \"genocide\" give me some names of internationally known historians or scholars who call the Xojali incident a \"genocide\" or list some countries that have recognized it as a \"genocide\"

I dont think we need to discus this with 'official' terms as we all know the word 'official' is useless in Kaukasus. For example Armenia is still denying the participation of the war between 1988-1994. Unless you actually agree with this we dont need to start 'official'.
But now lets look at the definition of the word genocide, what is genocide? A extermination of an ethnic group of people by an agressor group. And obviously the armenian side was trying to exterminate the Azeri in Kharabag. So its definitly a genocide. There is no minimum number of deaths needed for genocide we use the word massacre for that.
The only reason why this is not recognized genocide is because there is no 'official' agressor. The so called 'Nagorno Kharabag Republiek' is officially and practically not the agressor. So what do we have now? over 900 people slaughtered and no agressor, there is your reason.

At the moment Armenia is being pressured from two sides both economic and militarily. Unless Armenia is going to give back Kharabag to Azerbaycan, pay for the war damage (60 billion USD) and accept this genocide its going to stay that way, and more people are going to starve to death each day. And as Azerbaycan is going to modernize and double its militairy equipment starting in 2006 the pressure will rise and rise. Its just a matter of time before we finally will have Kharabag back.

[Azertos]

Hello mr Azeri, i can assure you, that we already had these conversations wich brought nothing, but air.

[Yerevan]

And obviously the armenian side was trying to exterminate the Azeri in Kharabag. So its definitly a genocide.

SOURCE?

[Azeri]

Hello mr Azeri, i can assure you, that we already had these conversations wich brought nothing, but air.

How foolish of myself I should have known better, thank you for informing me. And Im female not a male.

[Yerevan]

Thats right. You better ignore me. It's obvious that you don't have any proof that it was a "genocide".I find it interesting how you boys/girls are allowed to post your idiotic accusations such as "genocide" and get away with it. You have NO evidence, but yet your are allowed to post your crap over and over.

[PhilinFL]

If you read the official UN definition of "genocide," you can clearly see that it does NOT apply to anything done by Armenia nor N-K. "Sorry if the facts confuse you!"

<<Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948.

Article 1
The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(B) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
© Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. >>

[Fadix]

Come on Mordoth, you can't possibly blame the guy, he s in a deeep deep disavowal, you can't save him anymore. Yerevan, i gave you enough sources, and what ? international historians, this Genocide is committed in the modern times, brought up in light just few years ago, further investigations are starting from now on, i gave you unbiased sources, it was definitely better than your 'neutral' Caroline Cocks..ahm .Cox..... now Yerevan, i see this is useless, your are gonna deny it for sure, in your eyes, Karabakh is ''legal'', there was no act of Genocide, we were the agressors...and so on.....

Dude, I have access to records from the press too. Thomas Goltz, who still maintain a higher figure than the official Azerbaijani officials, is hardly a credible source. He is traced as the one having brought the atrocities to light. It isen't because one present bunch of newspapers, that it makes as if there are hundreds of sources. Do you seriously believe a genocide for an over a hundred of victims?

There was two parallel news coverage during those days(one of the two brought by Goltz and his Turkish wife). Here if you understand French, I've retrieved from Le Monde, Feb. 27, 1992, the other news coverage which specifically explains what happened there.

MEIC EDIT, ENGLISH ONLY PLEASE

Azerbaijan lunched an attack during the négotiations innitiated by Iran, also bombarding Russian military positions, which according to Washington could have caused others to enter in the conflict. This happened the same days when the Khojali tragedy happened.

I have a collection of newspaper reports, and can post them here. They're not google materials unlike yours. I have for instance newspaper reports about witnesses claiming Russians shouting on people, and only placing the word Armenian after having used the term Russian.

I also have run a search on various research dabases, and can provide here the list, Khojali is nowhere to be found in those covering journals, the only few citations comming from newspapers, and the primary correspondant being Thomas Goltz whos articles appeared in the Economist, New York Times, Washington Post etc., also his reports being retranscripted in various other newspapers.

You should maybe read this up, and answer to the issues raised there.

http://www.hairenik.com/armenianweekly/apr...history003.html
http://www.hairenik.com/armenianweekly/jun...history002.html

True, an Armenian website, probably biased, but I am not talking about there interpretation, I am talking about the sources cited there.

Also, you may take a look at this.

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=6747

If you pay attention, there are there too, many newspaper reports.

I've run a search on books too.

All the works I've checked refer to it as tragedy or massacre.

''But what are these new impressions--the Sumgait massacre and the Khojali tragedy? Indeed, to rub salt on the old wounds is all they do.''

Central Asia and Transcaucasia: Ethnicity and Conflict by Vitaly V. Naumkin; Greenwood Press, 1994 p. 95

''At various times in 1992-93 each side was convinced that it could win on the battlefield. In February 1992, Armenian forces overran Khojali, the second largest Azerbaijani-populated city in Nagorno-Karabakh. This was followed by a massacre of Azerbaijani civilians that left at least 159 dead.''

The Forsaken People: Case Studies of the Internally Displaced by Roberta Cohen, Francis M. Deng; Brookings Institution, 1998 p. 260

Even Bülent Gökay, in his work, doesn't call it genocide, and accuses the Russians.

''There are many accounts by Armenian witnesses of the unexpected Russian military help in the sweeping advance of the Armenian forces of Karabakh in 1992, which resulted in the massacre of Azeri civilians in the town of Khojali, a turning point in the escalation of the conflict into a fully-fledged war. These tales are confirmed by an American commentator who reported Russian support that included the participation of dozens of tanks and armoured personnel carriers of the 366th Army (Russian) stationed in Stepanakert, the capital of Karabakh. An Azeri reporter with the BBC, who was part of a human rights delegation to briefly recovered territory in Karabakh in 1993, found written instructions from Russia's 7th Army based in Yerevan.''

The Politics of Caspian Oil by Bülent Gökay; St. Martin's Press, 2001 p. 146

''This cautious policy was put to a severe test over the next three months, as the struggle for Nagorno-Karabakh intensified. On 4 March, the Turkish press reported that some 500 civilians had been massacred by Armenian militias who had captured Khojali, an Azeri town in Nagorno-Karabakh. This report was later confirmed by British and American newspapers.[28] The Khojali massacre awakened a storm of protest in Turkey, with demonstrators calling for a "Holy War" against Armenia. In an off-the-cuff remark, President Özal suggested that Turkey "should frighten [the Armenians] a little." ''

Middle East Contemporary Survey: 1992 Vol. 16 by Barbara Executive Editor Newson; Westview Press, 1994 p. 764

For the newspapers in question, at footnote [28], she provides, Milliyet, 4 March; The Economist, 7 March 1992, p. 52.

The first newspaper is a Turkish newspaper, the second article, Goltz from the Economist also brought the news in the Washington Post, New York Times etc., it isen't because one person write in many newspapers that it makes ''various''. Goltz and his Turkish wife Hikjan, still claims 800 deaths(when he was the one officially bringing to noise of a thousand). The guy studied in Turkish, lived two years in Azerbaijan to write his Azerbaijan Diary, and also, for all justice, his theory about what really happened in Khojaly largelly expressed in his article titled: ''Letter from Eurasia: The Hidden Russian Hand'' published in Foreign Policy, No. 92 (Autumn, 1993), pp. 92-116, which is plain conspirationist and psychotic.

I can cite others if need be.

Also, while the Turkish states deny the Armenian genocide, even though, there are admissions by Turkish commanders, generals etc. There are still to be found any indication of premedited massacres to destroy a population in Khojali, and this from the same state that opened a corridor which permited journalists in.

[Baku87]

lol and we should believe this from a member who has only got one 1 post, its probably one of the armeni multi accounts. How long did it took for you to make that post? 2-3hours? I just figured you out in 2min. lol and yerewan maybe you should try and 'read' before making a comment, stupid.

[Yerevan]

You retard, ask the mods to trace the tracking number or whatever the hell it is called and they will tell you that it is not me. Then I want an apoligy.

[Azertos]

Azerbaijan lunched an attack during the négotiations innitiated by Iran

.

say what?? source?

also bombarding Russian military positions, which according to Washington could have caused others to enter in the conflict. This happened the same days when the Khojali tragedy happened.

.

source, ohh by the way have you ever heard of collapsing of the USSR?

I have a collection of newspaper reports, and can post them here. They're not google materials unlike yours.

.

wauww, that's cool, damn and do you know that i'm Madonna?!

I have for instance newspaper reports about witnesses claiming Russians shouting on people, and only placing the word Armenian after having used the term Russian.

.

yeah, there is no doubt of Russians being involved in this conflict!

http://www.hairenik.com/armenianweekly/jun...history002.html

.

well. if you want it this way , i'll be pleased to send you some azeri websites.

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=6747

.

so do you call this hard facts??? from an Armenian(Hayastan) forum??

ohh by the way; Je ne parle pas francais, so pls post things in English!

[Azertos]

How foolish of myself I should have known better, thank you for informing me. And Im female not a male.

.


that's nice ms Azeri, memnun oldum!

[Fadix]

I'v numbered your answer to make answering them in an easier way.

1-Dude, you ask for sources, but yet it is in the article I've posted.
2-Read the article
3-Don't throw words to pretend you have something to say.
4-Those articles not only report witnesses claiming that Russians had something to do with it, but being there with guns and directly shouting people. Which is dubvious at best. All massacres have purpouses, including the Holocaust, Armenian genocide, Rwanda genocide, Cambodia, Bosnia etc., no massacres happens just freely like that. Yet, no one has provided any purpouses, why Russians and Armenians will shout at peoples, scalp them and then open a corridor for journalists.
5-Don't worry, I know them already, I was talking about the reference cited in that article, not the interpretation the authors make. I need you to answer those references. Can you?
6-Yes, facts, for the simple reason that I am the author of that, and they were materials brought by my research.
7-This explains why you have posted French references, which even the title was miswriten, one wonder what would be the credibility of such materials, when those that have translated them could even not rewrite the titles. BTW, use a translator.

Azerbaijan lunched an attack during the négotiations innitiated by Iran

.

1-say what?? source?

also bombarding Russian military positions, which according to Washington could have caused others to enter in the conflict. This happened the same days when the Khojali tragedy happened.

.

2-source, ohh by the way have you ever heard of collapsing of the USSR?

I have a collection of newspaper reports, and can post them here. They're not google materials unlike yours.

.

3-wauww, that's cool, damn and do you know that i'm Madonna?!

I have for instance newspaper reports about witnesses claiming Russians shouting on people, and only placing the word Armenian after having used the term Russian.

.

4-yeah, there is no doubt of Russians being involved in this conflict!

http://www.hairenik.com/armenianweekly/jun...history002.html

.

5-well. if you want it this way , i'll be pleased to send you some azeri websites.

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=6747

.

6-so do you call this hard facts??? from an Armenian(Hayastan) forum??

7-ohh by the way; Je ne parle pas francais, so pls post things in English!

[Fadix]

lol and we should believe this from a member who has only got one 1 post, its probably one of the armeni multi accounts. How long did it took for you to make that post? 2-3hours? I just figured you out in 2min. lol and yerewan maybe you should try and 'read' before making a comment, stupid.

Baku, Fadix is an alias I've been using for years. You can google it.

[hanim]

Fadix, this letter was written by Holly Cartner, Executive Director, Human Rights Watch/Helsinki to the armenian forign minister who were spreading lies about Khojali and using HRW report for its wrong interpretations:

Маch 24, 1997
Mr. Alexander Arzoumanian
Foreign Minister, Republic of Armenia
Marshal Baghramian Boulevard
Yerevan
By Fax: (3742) 151-042


Dear Mr. Arzoumanyan,

As Executive Director of Human Rights Watch/Helsinki (formerly Helsinki Watch), I wish to respond to the March 3 Ministry of Foreign Affairs statement regarding the 1992 slaughter of Azeri civilians in the town of Khojaly in Nagorno Karabakh. In it, the Ministry argues that the Popular Front of Azerbaijan was responsible for the civilian deaths, supporting this argument by referring to an interview with former President Ayaz Mutalibov and, incredibly, to a 1992 report by our organization. The report, Bloodshed in the Caucasus: Escalation of the Armed Conflict in Nagorno Karabakh, documents violations of humanitarian law in the conflict committed by both Azerbaijani and Karabakh Armenian forces. Neither our overview and version of the events, nor the individual interviews with Azeri refugees from Khojaly and other villages in Nagorno Karabakh published in the report could possibly support the notion that Azerbaijani forces willfully prevented the evacuation of civilians or that they shot their own citizens. We are deeply distressed that the Ministry has, wittingly or unwittingly, linked our report to views which we reject and which our report does not reflect.


The Ministry statement reads: \". . the militia of the Azerbaijani National Front actively obstructed and actually prevented the exodus of the local population through the mountain passages specifically left open by Karabakh Armenians to facilitate the flight of the civilian population. On this matter, the September 1992 Helsinki Watch non-governmental organization report quotes an Azerbaijani woman who says that Armenians had notified the Azerbaijani civilian population to leave the town with white flags raised, in fact the Azerbaijani militia shot those who attempted to flee.\"


Our report indeed found that many residents of Khojaly may have had advance warning of the impending military operation, since Armenian forces had given an ultimatum to Alif Gajiyev, then head of the Khojaly militia, who in turn warned civilians. Our research and that of the Memorial Human Rights Center found that the retreating militia fled Khojaly along with some of the large groups of fleeing civilians. Our report noted that by remaining armed and in uniform, the Azerbaijani militia may be considered as combatants and thus endangered fleeing civilians, even if their intent had been to protect them.


Yet we place direct responsibility for the civilian deaths with Karabakh Armenian forces. Indeed, neither our report nor that of Memorial includes any evidence to support the argument that Azerbaijani forces obstructed the flight of, or fired on Azeri civilians. For clarity's sake I cite our 1992 report (page 24):


\" . . . Thus, a party that intersperses combatants with fleeing civilians puts those civilians at risk and violates its obligation to protect its own civilians. . . .[T]he attacking party [i.e., Karabakh Armenian forces] is still obliged to take precautionary measures to avoid or minimize civilian casualties. In particular, the party must suspend an attack if it becomes apparent that the attack may be expected to cause civilian casualties that are excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.\"


\"The circumstances surrounding the attack . . .on those fleeing Khojaly indicate that [Karabakh] Armenian forces and the troops of the 366th CIS regiment . . .deliberately disregarded this customary law restraint on attacks. Nagorno Karabakh officials and fighters clearly expected the inhabitants of Khojaly to flee since they claim to have informed the town that a corridor would be left open to allow for their safe passage. . . Under these circumstances, the killing of fleeing combatants could not justify the forseeably large number of civilian casualties.\"


Please allow me to clarify another reference to our 1992 report, regarding the 1988 Sumgait pogrom. Our report reads: \"The most brutal of these events was the anti-Armenian pogrom in Sumgait, Azerbaijan, which took the lives of thirty-two Armenians, wounded hundreds more, and intensified the fears of ethnic Armenians living in other parts of Azerbaijan,\" which differs from the citation used in the Ministry statement. We further cited the estimate of 300,000-350,000 ethnic Armenians who fled Azerbaijan, not 600,000 as the Ministry statement seemed to attribute to our report.


We welcome the use of our reports by governments and intergovernmental organizations, and we sincerely hope that there will be no further misrepresentation regarding the contents of our 1992 report.
I thank you for your attention.


Yours sincerely,



Holly Cartner
Executive Director
Human Rights Watch/Helsinki




cc: Mr. Hasan Hasanov, Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Azerbaijan
Mr. Rouben Shugarian, Ambassador of the Republic of Armenia to the United States
Mr. Hafiz Pashayev, Ambassador of the Republic of Azerbaijan to the United States
Ambassador Peter Tomsen, United States Ambassador to Armenia
Ambassador Richard Kauzlarich, United States Ambassador to Azerbaijan

[hanim]

one more letter,
the Khojali topic just recently reached the american congress.
Dan Burton, a Republican from Indiana, was first elected to the U.S. Congress in November 1982. He currently serves on the House Committee for International Relations.

Mr. Speaker,
For years a number of distinguished Members of this House have come to the Floor of this Chamber every April to commemorate the so-called \"Armenian Genocide\" - the exact details of which are still very much under debate today almost 90 years after the events. Ironically and tragically, none of these Members has ever once mentioned the ethnic cleansing carried out by the Armenians during the Armenia-Azerbaijan war, which ended a mere decade ago.

Khojali was a little known small town in Azerbaijan until February 1992. Today it no longer exists, and for people of Azerbaijan and the region, the word \"Khojali\" has become synonymous with pain, sorrow, and cruelty. On February 26, 1992, the world ended for the people of Khojali when Armenian troops supported by a Russian infantry regiment did not just attack the town but razed it to the ground. In the process the Armenians brutally murdered 613 people, annihilated whole families, captured 1,275 people, left 1,000 civilians maimed or crippled, and another 150 people unaccounted for in their wake.

Memorial, a Russian human rights group, reported that \"scores of the corpses bore traces of profanation. Doctors on a hospital train in Aghdam noted no less than four corpses that had been scalped and one that had been beheaded....and one case of live scalping.\"

Various other witnesses reported horrifying details of the massacre. The late Azerbaijani journalist Chingiz Mustafayev, who was the first to film the aftermath of the massacre, wrote an account of what he saw. He said: \"Some children were found with severed ears; the skin had been cut from the left side of an elderly woman's face; and men had been scalped.\" Human Rights Watch called the tragedy at the time \"the largest massacre to date in the conflict\". The New York Times wrote about \"truckloads of bodies\" and described acts of \"scalping\". [Page: E285]

Left: Close-up of map showing Khojali in Nagorno-Karabakh.

This savage cruelty against innocent women, children and the elderly is unfathomable in and of itself, but the senseless brutality did not stop with Khojali. Khojali was simply the first. In fact, the level of brutality and the unprecedented atrocities committed at Khojali set a pattern of destruction and ethnic cleansing that Armenian troops would adhere to for the remainder of the war. On November 29, 1993, Newsweek quoted a senior US Government official as saying, \"What we see now is a systematic destruction of every village in their (the Armenians') way. It's vandalism.\"

This year, as they have every year since the massacre, the leaders of Azerbaijan's Christian, Jewish, and Muslim communities have issued appeals on the eve of commemoration of the massacre of Khojali urging the international community to condemn the February 26, 1992 bloodshed, facilitate liberation of the occupied territories and repatriation of the displaced communities. And every year, those residents of Khojali, who survived the massacre-many still scattered among one million refugees and displaced persons in camps around Azerbaijan-appeal with pain and hope to the international community to hold Armenia responsible for this crime.

I'm pleased to say that on January 25, 2005, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe overwhelmingly adopted a resolution highlighting that \"considerable parts of Azerbaijan's territory are still occupied by the Armenian forces and separatist forces are still in control of the Nagorno-Karabakh region.\" It also expressed concern that the military action between 1988 and 1994 and the widespread ethnic hostilities which preceded it \"led to large-scale ethnic expulsion and the creation of mono-ethnic areas which resemble the terrible concept of ethnic cleansing.\"

Mr. Speaker, this is not the ringing condemnation that the survivors of Khojali deserve, but it is an important first step by an international community that has too long been silent on this issue. Congress should take the next step and I hope my colleagues will join me in standing with Azerbaijanis as they commemorate the tragedy of Khojali. The world should know and remember.
_____

p.s. Oh, I see here you have discussed his speech very constructively in the forum.
http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=10893

[hanim]

Nagorno-Karabagh: The world’s forgotten genocide?

http://www.internationalspecialreports.com...nokarabagh.html

[PhilinFL]

<<the 1992 slaughter of Azeri civilians >>

<<Various other witnesses reported horrifying details of the massacre.>>

Your own sources demonstrate it was NOT a "genocide."

GIVE IT UP AND MOVE ON!! You are just demeaning the victims and hurting your own credibility by using that word so promiscuously.

[Fadix]

Dear hanim, I've already read all of those stuff. The point here is that this thread was about Thomas Goltz who is claimed to be independent, when he is not. Do you even know that he graduated in Turkish, and has been defending Azerbaijan for years with the help of his Turkish wife? How can anyone that still maintain the 800 figure, higher than the present Azerbaijani official ones be called independent? Did you even read his ''Letter from Eurasia: The Hidden Russian Hand'' published in Foreign Policy, No. 92 (Autumn, 1993), pp. 92-116?

If you want to get a copy, I can email you a PDF format.

As for Dan Burton, suffice to say that the guy denies the second most studied genocide, which is considered as undeniable by the International Association of Genocide Scholars (the major body of scholars who study genocide in North America and Europe), recognized by the Permanent Peoples tribunal, International Center Transitional Justice and that is the second most cited cases after the Holocaust in various genocide journals, such as the Holocaust and Genocide Studies. Also, one of the most often reported cases in international war crimes conferences, also considered as the archetype of genocides.(See: for example professor Melson comparative studies)

http://www.psych.upenn.edu/seligman/chirot.htm

Take a look at this. This is one of the international conferences about conflicts, on the middle of the page, you'll see a table, not only is Khojali even not on the list of genocides, not only is it nowhere on the other lists in the table, but Azerbaijan is neither there too. And don't shout biases, since the professor that brought the major work about the Armenian cases, is professor Fikret Adanir who's Turkish.

As for "Nagorno-Karabagh: The world’s forgotten genocide? "

This is not a report in the proper sense of the term, it is a recycled material from the republic of Azerbaijan, not even Srebrenica is really considered a genocide.

As for Holly Cartner, I don't see her mentioning the term genocide, neither providing figures(While they published figures of victims were something like 159, which was said to be the official figures, before Goltz and his team brought the "thousand").

[Yerevan]

Very well said, Fadix.

[concheet]

Getting back to Goltz for a moment, I read ALL of the reviews of his book and there was another side to them. As BIGTURK published several of the glowing supporters, allow me to air the other side:

Big lies by Thomas Goltz, January 30, 2004
Reviewer: A customer from CA United States

One question that I have to Thomas Goltz is how much money was he paid by Azeri propaganda machine?

I am a refugee from Karabakh, Shahumyan region, which was completely destroyed by Azeri army by fall 1992 just because It was populated by Armenians. More than 500 innocent people mostly elderly, who could not cross mountains to get refuge, were tortured and killed by Azeries. My own grandfather got killed by an artillery shell while digging potatoes in our back yard.

Completely one-sided/Lacking historical insight!, November 20, 2003
Reviewer: Arshak from Los Angeles, CA, USA

This book is a completely bias/one-sided perception of the events in and around Nagorno-Karabagh. How can Karabagh be claimed by Azerbaijan when it contains CENTURIES old churches and artifacts Armenian in orgin present till TODAY! He neglects to mention the massacres of Sumgait, Baku, Shushi, Kirovabad, Maragha, and Stepanakert where hundreds of Armenian men, women, and children were beaten, raped, and burned alive. Goltz has even lobbied in Congress for Azerbaijan, opposing Section 907(1992) which \"condemned the human rights violations by the Azeri's.\"

On November 20, 2003 (today) Goltz hosted a lecture at the University of CA in Irvine and was swarmed by questions after the lecture that exposed the contradictions in his book, the holes in his assertions, and his omissions of key historical insight. He was only able to dodge the questions before he left the lecture hall with an audience still present.

THOMAS GOLTZ IS AZERBAIJAN'S AND TURKEY'S POLITICAL PUPPET!

adventures from the crumbing edges of the Soviet Empire,
May 4, 2002 Reviewer: Art from Virginia

Gotlz was on the front line of a nasty little war that few in the West took much notice of. His time in Azerbaijan got him a front row seat to the crumbling edges of the Soviet empire. The author describes well how chaotic modern war can be. Since he was one of the few Americans in Azerbaijan at the time, since the oil boom had yet to begin, he stuck up relationships with many characters that go on to rule Azerbaijan. Ten years after the fact the combat writing holds up well, but the political chapters have not. The author does not seem to hide that he is pro-Azeri. You can sense his rage as he tries unsuccessfully to get anybody in the Western media to care about the war. A good editor could have chopped this book down by a third and made it a better read. Azeri's love the book, Armenians hate it, but what would you expect. --.

This book is an absolute myth; as in half-truth. It was written by a journalist who was paid off from organizations sponsoring anti-Armenian sentiment. ... The fact is during the last decades of the Soviet Union, Azerbaijani forces began massacring the Armenian minority in Azerbaijani SSR. Soviet troops entered the territories trying to end the bloody conflict. All hell broke loose and then Armenia and Azerbaijan were at war. Thousands of people were killed on both sides.

Azerbaijan now claims Armenians as being the aggressors in the decades-old conflict. Bull! Azerbaijanis started a mini-genocide against Armenians and when the Armenians defeated them, whilst liberating Armenian land thus forming the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, they began ... campaigns trying to influence intolerance of Armenians. It hasn't worked.

Why didn't this book write about the massacre of Armenians prior to the war between the two former Soviet Republics? Why didn't it mention that Karabakh had always been Armenian land until Stalin forcefully seceded Karabakh from Armenian SSR and incorporated it to Azerbaijani SSR? Why didn't this book print pictures of centuries-old Armenian churches in Karabakh? Why didn't it present all the historical evidence pointing Karabakh as part of Armenia?

It doesn't make sense to me how a journalist can travel to a foreign country for a couple days and almost instantly become intelligent on a subject concerning two rival nationalities. ... --.

The worst coverage of the Karabakh conflict ever, March 20, 2000
Reviewer: BURT HERMAN, Associated Press Writer

Goltz's book is a fraud, pure and simple. [b]Perhaps, the most detestable fraud created by the Azerbaijani propagandists (with Goltz among them) in recent years is the so-called Hoax of Khojally (Xojalli) Massacre

The reasons of why the PFAP bandits killed Khojally's Azeri civilians remain unclear to date. According to some experts, it happened by mistake (by friendly fire), while in the opinion of the Azeri former president Ayaz Mutalibov it was a deliberate attempt to defame his administration by his rivals from the PFAP. It is notable that after the events in Khojally Mutalibov was forced to resign. Too, the Azeri operator Chingiz Mustafayev, who filmed the dead- bodies and later launched an independent investigation on the Khojaly events, was killed in Azerbaijan under mysterious circumstances, reportedly by PFAP thugs.

At any rate, the Khojally slaughter highlights a key fact that Azeris are still a fragmented nation, parts of which continue maintaining strong regional identities, with tribal self-images sometimes prevailing over the identity as of \"the Azeris.\" Under these circumstances, killing the representatives of a rival clan is not a totally unimaginable occurrence --.

SOURCE- and pages following....

[Baku87]

loool look at the pafedic armeni trying to make khojaly a myth then say Azeri were agressors

[Azertos]

-Dude, you ask for sources, but yet it is in the article I've posted.

.

yes indeed, it is in the article, on the 'neutral' Armenian article.

Don't throw words to pretend you have something to say.

.

i do actually have something to say: SOURCE? (and this time neutral source)

All massacres have purpouses, including the Holocaust, Armenian genocide, Rwanda genocide, Cambodia, Bosnia etc., no massacres happens just freely like that. Yet, no one has provided any purpouses, why Russians and Armenians will shout at peoples, scalp them and then open a corridor for journalists

.

are you sure about that? how about 20% occupied lands??? an Armenian revenge maybe on turks?

Don't worry, I know them already, I was talking about the reference cited in that article, not the interpretation the authors make. I need you to answer those references. Can you?

.

Well don't worry , cuz we know Armenian sites too. Send the references where you can find them on a neutral site.

Yes, facts, for the simple reason that I am the author of that, and they were materials brought by my research

.

what,do you want me to give you a Nobel price? great, you're the author, is this supposed to make some sense or am i losing some point here???

This explains why you have posted French references, which even the title was miswriten, one wonder what would be the credibility of such materials, when those that have translated them could even not rewrite the titles. BTW, use a translator

.

possible, i have posted some French references, but not in French, ooooh the title was 'miswritten'...i asked you to translate your french article , wich you couldn't do and now you are some kind of an expert...

The point here is that this thread was about Thomas Goltz who is claimed to be independent, when he is not.

.

says who? says you?? and i say he is independent...now who's right??

Do you even know that he graduated in Turkish, and has been defending Azerbaijan for years with the help of his Turkish wife?

.

I don't see the problem, many of Azeris are graduated in Russian, does it make them pro Russian?! and i never knew he had a Turkish wife....

This is not a report in the proper sense of the term, it is a recycled material from the republic of Azerbaijan, not even Srebrenica is really considered a genocide

.

i'm glad you brought Srebrenica in this conversation, cuz it has some similarity with Khojaly, both cases are about ethnic cleansing, it's a shame how you deny Srebrenica, Everyone saw it on tv, how they were murdered one by one, we do have the Khojaly video files too, wich proves it was a genocide!

As for Holly Cartner, I don't see her mentioning the term genocide, neither providing figures(While they published figures of victims were something like 159, which was said to be the official figures, before Goltz and his team brought the \"thousand\").

.

Goltz and the team?? there is no team, there is a hard reality. 20% occupid lands, 1 million refugees, Khojaly!!!

[Azertos]

GIVE IT UP AND MOVE ON!! You are just demeaning the victims and hurting your own credibility by using that word so promiscuously

.


GIVE IT UP AND GET A LIFE PHIL!

[hanim]

I dont get you all, guy.
Is this all about Khojali being a genocide or massacre? You call it a massacre, if you prefer. Its a genocide to me. Its still sounds horrible and tragic. But you cant deny it did happen when over 700 (there are still some missing) innocent people were taken their lives away in a most disgusting unhuman way over night. And this happened just a few years ago.

[Azertos]

I dont get you all, guy.
Is this all about Khojali being a genocide or massacre? You call it a massacre, if you prefer. Its a genocide to me. Its still sounds horrible and tragic. But you cant deny it did happen when over 700 (there are still some missing) innocent people were taken their lives away in a most disgusting unhuman way over night. And this happened just a few years ago.

yes indeed Hanim, by the way take a look at this french website about the Azeri Genocide: http://www.imprescriptible.us/droitsdelhomme.php

and here the English translated version: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=e...GLD:en%26sa%3DN

[Fadix]

That's the thing Azertos, and your answer is an indication of this, I don't know your age but I hope for your own sake that if you're over 18, it's not that over. I never was able to discuss normally with an Azeris, even though I was able to discuss with Turks.

It was not from 'the' 'neutral' Armenian article; it was from the 'Le Monde' article which was based on Washington’s worries. This information is the coverage which was in parallel to those brought by Goltz, and if you read the reports from newspapers, nowhere is it hidden that Goltz was the first one there. One example is an article posted in The Sunday Times, 8 March 1992, which state: « Thomas Goltz, the first to report the massacre by Armenian soldiers, reports from Agdam. » But yet, Goltz was the first team there and was also able to take pictures of the bodies of people reported having died prior to February 26, while the only others that were there so soon, reported completely another thing, even the scalped story was recycled from Goltz when he was in position to report that the same dead bodies lying there weren't scalped and this after that the corridor was wide open, and that the scalping happened after.

The Role of Media in Reporting Ethnic Conflict, Conflict Management Group, Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA. January 1994, page 31-32

Dan Sneider writes:

« I would like to talk as a working journalist to my colleagues here, because although this discussion has been very interesting and often provocative, it is a little bit too abstract for my own taste. I would like to talk about these guidelines in terms of concrete situations.

This first question of balance and providing unbiased and accurate coverage of each side of the conflict: I have covered the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan for three years now. The principle of balance is a great principle but often hard to accomplish in reality. Let me give you the example of the events in Khozhali. I was in Moscow when the stories came out of Khozhali saying there was this tremendous massacre of civilians by Armenian forces, there were gruesome stories, some TV footage, but it was very hard to figure out what exactly the pictures were of, and the numbers of people described as being killed, and the circumstances varied depending upon the account. I decided to go to Nagorno-Karabakh, but I went through the Armenian side because I wanted to get into Karabakh itself which at that point was controlled, as it is now, by the Armenians.

Before I left, I had heard of all these reports, I talked to one Western news photographer who had been on the scene. But even he had not actually seen the events himself. His account was based on having been flown up to a mountain side by the Azeris in a helicopter to take photographs of bodies on the hillside, bodies which seemed to indicate that they were of civilians, but also adult men, but seemed to indicate that they had been shot at close range. So I had that information together with all the other conflicting reports. I made my way to Karabakh and spoke to the Armenian authorities there, who gave me their version of events which was of course completely different. They described the battle as they saw it. I interviewed soldiers who had been directly involved in the battle, who had been firing on Azeri forces. I was in Khozhali, I saw the city, the damage that was done, some of the damage fit the description of the battle that I got from the Armenian side, which was that there was a big battle, the Azeris tried to move out of the town under fire, it was in the middle of the night, they fired on everything that they saw…

I agree that it would be good to be able to make an assessment, a judgment about maybe the absolute with or to some degree as much as you can make a judgment about the truth of what has happened. But a lot of the time you simply are not in a position to make that judgment. That's why I think the importance of balance is to insist that where you cannot ascertain the truth, you must present as accurately as possible what you do know, and then what the different versions of that event are from the conflicting sides, and I think that if you are a direct observer of the event, I think it is fair to make the kind of assessment that was talked about. But if you are not, you have to treat it as the perceptions of that event on both sides and how those perceptions are affecting the reactions and the responses, and the escalation of the conflict. »

I guess you know what the Czech journalist Dana Mazalova, published in the Nizavisimaya Gazeta of April 2, 1992? She was one of the only that was there before the teams of photographers were brought by the Azeris side, and she reports the complete opposite.

What about what Florence David had to say March 2, again one of the only there during the event. She reports how the pictures were only taken starting on March 1, on agreement between both parties to evacuate the bodies of their own victim, which he estimate to 100. She report how during the exchange Helicopters came from nowhere to take pictures of those bodies. She goes as far to call it a sinister manipulation. She also report that the agreement was broken by the Iranian Red Crescent Society, the le Monde article for instance, also present how Iran tried to get a cease fire from both sides.

The Department on Questions of Law Enforcement and Defense of the Supreme Soviet of the Republic of Azerbaijan released figures was 167. And this after that the Azerbaijani Interior Ministry released their casualty figures, 100 dead and 250 wounded (COVCAS Bulletin, March 5, 1992). Helsinki Watch, published a list of the casualties(total number 181) based on a list provided by the Azerbaijani parliament. The figures then jumped with Goltz, and we all know what resulted from it.

Coming to the figure of 20% occupied, another example of manipulation which the Azeris sides uses ad nauseum

If we add NK territory, officially 4388 sq. Km (let’s take this figure, although the northern part is not 100% in Armenian hands).

Grand total comes to 13,206 sq. km, which represents 15.25 % of total Azerbaijani territory of 86,600 sq.Km. If we take into consideration regarding 35% of Fizuli and 25 % of Aghdam being in Armenian hands, then the occupied figure diminishes by about 1721 sq. Km. bringing the percentage down to 13.25 %.

This includes the entire territory of Nagorno Karabakh.

Well don't worry , cuz we know Armenian sites too. Send the references where you can find them on a neutral site.

I have already read all the 'Azeris' sites one could find, and even read works from your side, what have you read written from the other side? I've posted a link, but you won't read it, are you so scared to have to revise your position?

possible, i have posted some French references, but not in French, ooooh the title was 'miswritten'...i asked you to translate your french article , wich you couldn't do and now you are some kind of an expert...

I am not here to spoon feed you, there are online language translators, which do pretty good job at translating articles, as for the 'miswritten' title, they're not only miswritten, they've been retranscripted from Azeris translation of the original French version.

says who? says you?? and i say he is independent...now who's right??

Of course you are free to pretend what you want; this board permits you to express what you want unlike Alyiev dictatorial regime.

I don't see the problem, many of Azeris are graduated in Russian, does it make them pro Russian?! and i never knew he had a Turkish wife....

Perhaps you misunderstood me; I was not talking about in which language he graduated in.

i'm glad you brought Srebrenica in this conversation, cuz it has some similarity with Khojaly, both cases are about ethnic cleansing, it's a shame how you deny Srebrenica, Everyone saw it on tv, how they were murdered one by one, we do have the Khojaly video files too, wich proves it was a genocide!

Are you really comparing Srebrenica with Khojali? Answer so I could know if you're sane. I never denied Srebrenica, I do not deny war crimes(believe it or not, I do not deny Khojali being a war crime), I just said that even Srebrenica isn’t called genocide by those specializing in genocide comparative studies.

Goltz and the team?? there is no team, there is a hard reality. 20% occupid lands, 1 million refugees, Khojaly!!! »

Repeating it hundreds of time won't make something true. As for the million figure, true, but this includes also more than 300 thousand Armenians, which per population makes of the Armenian refugee crises as bad.

[Azertos]

Big lies by Thomas Goltz, January 30, 2004
Reviewer: A customer from CA United States

One question that I have to Thomas Goltz is how much money was he paid by Azeri propaganda machine?

I am a refugee from Karabakh, Shahumyan region, which was completely destroyed by Azeri army by fall 1992 just because It was populated by Armenians. More than 500 innocent people mostly elderly, who could not cross mountains to get refuge, were tortured and killed by Azeries. My own grandfather got killed by an artillery shell while digging potatoes in our back yard.

.


whahahahahaha.......damn.. you forgot this part!!! Gotcha!!!!

God Bless America, God Bless Armenia and INDEPENDENT Karabakh!

.

heheheh u got this from an armenian comment about the book.....ohh you big fibber that you are!!!

[Fadix]

I dont get you all, guy.
Is this all about Khojali being a genocide or massacre? You call it a massacre, if you prefer. Its a genocide to me. Its still sounds horrible and tragic. But you cant deny it did happen when over 700 (there are still some missing) innocent people were taken their lives away in a most disgusting unhuman way over night. And this happened just a few years ago.

Why don't you spare us, and start talking about 10,000 as figures, afterall your friend is comparing the event with Srebrenica.

Isen't it amazing that people like you who shout 'Khojali genocide' denies also the second most studied cases of genocide? I've read what you had to say too about it in another thread, and if you ask me, in my book you have no credibility from what you had to say, and having that in mind the fact that you call the event as genocide.

[Fadix]

I dont get you all, guy.
Is this all about Khojali being a genocide or massacre? You call it a massacre, if you prefer. Its a genocide to me. Its still sounds horrible and tragic. But you cant deny it did happen when over 700 (there are still some missing) innocent people were taken their lives away in a most disgusting unhuman way over night. And this happened just a few years ago.

yes indeed Hanim, by the way take a look at this french website about the Azeri Genocide: http://www.imprescriptible.us/droitsdelhomme.php

and here the English translated version: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=e...GLD:en%26sa%3DN

This website was copied from http://www.imprescriptible.fr/ a term by Yves Ternon to refer to the Armenian genocide. This just show how low some could go.

[Azertos]

This website was copied from http://www.imprescriptible.fr/ a term by Yves Ternon to refer to the Armenian genocide. This just show how low some could go.

come on , give me a break, what s wrong with the site?? well i guess everything is wrong when it comes to Azeris....Thomas Goltz....Carter....

[Fadix]

This website was copied from http://www.imprescriptible.fr/ a term by Yves Ternon to refer to the Armenian genocide. This just show how low some could go.

come on , give me a break, what s wrong with the site?? well i guess everything is wrong when it comes to Azeris....Thomas Goltz....Carter....

Dude, the term imprescriptible to refer to the Armenian genocide was a term coined by Yves Ternon, who provided http://www.imprescriptible.fr the premission to publish one of his books online.

Le Génocide Azéri est imprescriptible comes from the term Le Génocide Arménien est imprescriptible

Making fun of over a million victims with cheap tricks like this is unethical and unacceptable, but if you don't find anything wrong there, good for you, but after this don't consider that I will consider you as someone that has some national moral.

[Azertos]

I've posted a link, but you won't read it, are you so scared to have to revise your position?

.

i don't know how many times i have to tell you, but post an international unbiased link, not an Armenian.

I am not here to spoon feed you, there are online language translators, which do pretty good job at translating articles, as for the 'miswritten' title, they're not only miswritten, they've been retranscripted from Azeris translation of the original French version.

.

Mr Fadix, that is not my job, you are here to prove your point, therefor, it's up to you to translate it.

Of course you are free to pretend what you want; this board permits you to express what you want unlike Alyiev dictatorial regime

.

great, now we are discussing about Aliyev....

Are you really comparing Srebrenica with Khojali? Answer so I could know if you're sane. I never denied Srebrenica, I do not deny war crimes(believe it or not, I do not deny Khojali being a war crime), I just said that even Srebrenica isn’t called genocide by those specializing in genocide comparative studies.

.

well ok then, Mr Fadix, if you do not deny Khojaly being a war crime , from where your animosity???

[Fadix]

International unbiased link? I've posted newspapers, articles and books... at least they came mostly from me, they aren't something who knows who has provided on the net which could be considered as dubvious. As for the article, the only person beside me, whos Armenian and whom I posted the link of the article, is David Davidian, which provides his contact info and has published, I'd consider such a person more credible than the cowards that register by proxy.

As for the translation, this is a matter of accuracy, you won't believe anything an Armenian will tell you, fine, translate it, it will take tow seconds to do that with free translators like altavista translator which is online, you don't even have to download anything. If you're lazy don't blame it on others. If you have hours to find any materials supporting your thesis, don't you have few seconds to translate one of them?

As for Khojali, I have been studying war crimes for over five years now, I am in no position to deny any crimes. What I oppose, is the game played by ultra nationalist Azeris groups or authors who call the event a genocide as if the term was something to play with, by ironically denying the Armenian genocide. Also, what I oppose, is the figures of casulaties, and the reason is simple, because before Goltz, the official figures were bteween a hundred and two hundred, and this is confirmed by the earliest reporters who were, before helicopters came from nowhere to take pictures on the exchange cite called there by Goltz and his team.

I've posted a link, but you won't read it, are you so scared to have to revise your position?

.

i don't know how many times i have to tell you, but post an international unbiased link, not an Armenian.

I am not here to spoon feed you, there are online language translators, which do pretty good job at translating articles, as for the 'miswritten' title, they're not only miswritten, they've been retranscripted from Azeris translation of the original French version.

.

Mr Fadix, that is not my job, you are here to prove your point, therefor, it's up to you to translate it.

Of course you are free to pretend what you want; this board permits you to express what you want unlike Alyiev dictatorial regime

.

great, now we are discussing about Aliyev....

Are you really comparing Srebrenica with Khojali? Answer so I could know if you're sane. I never denied Srebrenica, I do not deny war crimes(believe it or not, I do not deny Khojali being a war crime), I just said that even Srebrenica isn’t called genocide by those specializing in genocide comparative studies.

.

well ok then, Mr Fadix, if you do not deny Khojaly being a war crime , from where your animosity???

[hanim]

Fadix,
Dana Mazalova doesnt exist. How many times...
Just type in her name into a seach box, you will find her name in only armenian sites.
Or, maybe she exists. But the article and the interview with MUtallibov was fabricated by armenians. They are good at making lies. Just look at the official letter of the HRW general director Cartner Iposted above. How dare you after that letter which exposes armenian's constant lying self, claim that azeris are responsible for the crimes in Khojali.

[PhilinFL]

I dont get you all, guy.
Is this all about Khojali being a genocide or massacre? You call it a massacre, if you prefer. Its a genocide to me.(

Yes, that has been the issue this entire thread. Haven't you read a word we've been saying?

You are wrong, and we are right. Only Azeri chauvinists refer to the Khojali massacre (accurate) as a "genocide." (preposterous)

You own sources that YOUR PALS have quoted here DO NOT call it a genocide. A few hundred innocent people killed during a war cannot be a genocide, unless their whole ethnic group is only a few thousand.

This is not a matter of semantics, but of truth and respect for language. Didn't you ever read the story of "the little boy who cried wolf?" You need to learn the lesson of that story.

You are just demeaning the victims of this massacre by exaggerating it and using the word "genocide" so promiscuously.

[Yerevan]

Our Azeri/Turkish members are diging themselves deeper and deeper with their ridiculous accusations.

[Fadix]

Fadix,
Dana Mazalova doesnt exist. How many times...
Just type in her name into a seach box, you will find her name in only armenian sites.
Or, maybe she exists. But the article and the interview with MUtallibov was fabricated by armenians. They are good at making lies. Just look at the official letter of the HRW general director Cartner Iposted above. How dare you after that letter which exposes armenian's constant lying self, claim that azeris are responsible for the crimes in Khojali.

I don't blame you for thinking that this is a cheap discussion in which people constantly fabricate. I, in the past, already provided the email address of the woman and contact her to confirm..., the Azeris guy never returned me the answer.

The woman not only exist, but has also produced documentaries about the situation, an example is "Dalso Obet po Nahornim Karabachu"

Also, she has covered many conflicts.

http://www.oneworld.cz/oneworld/2001/czech..._objektivem.php

You can also find an article here refering to Karabakj too.

http://archiv.neviditelnypes.zpravy.cz/cla...994_11_0_0.html

The rest, I can give you informations on how to get her documentary, google is not an ultimate tool unlike what you seem to believe.

They are good at making lies.

Your true color comes to light, but since we're at it maybe I should disqualify you by reffering to the fabricated Red Cross report brought by the Azeris side, which resulted by the Red Cross accusation against the Azeris givernment. But I won't need to go there, only your characterisation of Armenians as people good at fabricating is a good indication of your moral character.

[hanim]

They are good at making lies.

Your true color comes to light, but since we're at it maybe I should disqualify you by reffering to the fabricated Red Cross report brought by the Azeris side, which resulted by the Red Cross accusation against the Azeris givernment. But I won't need to go there, only your characterisation of Armenians as people good at fabricating is a good indication of your moral character.

I've got the right to say these words.
This is the proof how good armenians at telling lies:

Fadix, this letter was written by Holly Cartner, Executive Director, Human Rights Watch/Helsinki to the armenian forign minister who were spreading lies about Khojali and using HRW report for its wrong interpretations:

Quote:
Маch 24, 1997
Mr. Alexander Arzoumanian
Foreign Minister, Republic of Armenia
Marshal Baghramian Boulevard
Yerevan
By Fax: (3742) 151-042


Dear Mr. Arzoumanyan,

As Executive Director of Human Rights Watch/Helsinki (formerly Helsinki Watch), I wish to respond to the March 3 Ministry of Foreign Affairs statement regarding the 1992 slaughter of Azeri civilians in the town of Khojaly in Nagorno Karabakh. In it, the Ministry argues that the Popular Front of Azerbaijan was responsible for the civilian deaths, supporting this argument by referring to an interview with former President Ayaz Mutalibov and, incredibly
The Ministry statement reads: \". . the militia of the Azerbaijani National Front actively obstructed and actually prevented the exodus of the local population through the mountain passages specifically left open by Karabakh Armenians to facilitate the flight of the civilian population. On this matter, the September 1992 Helsinki Watch non-governmental organization report quotes an Azerbaijani woman who says that Armenians had notified the Azerbaijani civilian population to leave the town with white flags raised, in fact the Azerbaijani militia shot those who attempted to flee.\"


Our report indeed found that many residents of Khojaly may have had advance warning of the impending military operation, since Armenian forces had given an ultimatum to Alif Gajiyev, then head of the Khojaly militia, who in turn warned civilians. Our research and that of the Memorial Human Rights Center found that the retreating militia fled Khojaly along with some of the large groups of fleeing civilians. Our report noted that by remaining armed and in uniform, the Azerbaijani militia may be considered as combatants and thus endangered fleeing civilians, even if their intent had been to protect them.


[size=24]Yet we place direct responsibility for the civilian deaths with Karabakh Armenian forces. Indeed, neither our report nor that of Memorial includes any evidence to support the argument that Azerbaijani forces obstructed the flight of, or fired on Azeri civilians. For clarity's sake I cite our 1992 report (page 24):


\" . . . Thus, a party that intersperses combatants with fleeing civilians puts those civilians at risk and violates its obligation to protect its own civilians. . . .[T]he attacking party [i.e., Karabakh Armenian forces] is still obliged to take precautionary measures to avoid or minimize civilian casualties. In particular, the party must suspend an attack if it becomes apparent that the attack may be expected to cause civilian casualties that are excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.\"


\"The circumstances surrounding the attack . . .on those fleeing Khojaly indicate that [Karabakh] Armenian forces and the troops of the 366th CIS regiment . . .deliberately disregarded this customary law restraint on attacks. Nagorno Karabakh officials and fighters clearly expected the inhabitants of Khojaly to flee since they claim to have informed the town that a corridor would be left open to allow for their safe passage. . . Under these circumstances, the killing of fleeing combatants could not justify the forseeably large number of civilian casualties.\"


Please allow me to clarify another reference to our 1992 report, regarding the 1988 Sumgait pogrom. Our report reads: \"The most brutal of these events was the anti-Armenian pogrom in Sumgait, Azerbaijan, which took the lives of thirty-two Armenians, wounded hundreds more, and intensified the fears of ethnic Armenians living in other parts of Azerbaijan,\" which differs from the citation used in the Ministry statement. We further cited the estimate of 300,000-350,000 ethnic Armenians who fled Azerbaijan, not 600,000 as the Ministry statement seemed to attribute to our report.


We welcome the use of our reports by governments and intergovernmental organizations, and [size=18]we sincerely hope that there will be no further misrepresentation regarding the contents of our 1992 report. I thank you for your attention.


Yours sincerely,



Holly Cartner
Executive Director
Human Rights Watch/Helsinki




cc: Mr. Hasan Hasanov, Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Azerbaijan
Mr. Rouben Shugarian, Ambassador of the Republic of Armenia to the United States
Mr. Hafiz Pashayev, Ambassador of the Republic of Azerbaijan to the United States
Ambassador Peter Tomsen, United States Ambassador to Armenia
Ambassador Richard Kauzlarich, United States Ambassador to Azerbaijan

As you see, Ive got right to think that armenians like telling lies.

[Fadix]

Racist lad, Carter report was about the interpretation of a report, more than fabricating a report, while the Azeris authorities have compleatly fabricated a Red Cross report, I will never go as low as generalizing people and using that as "proof" for the supposed pathological character of an ethnic group. Having said that, I do not wish to answer you back, for me some common sense is a prerequist to engage in a conversation, something you seem to not pocess. Regards

[quote=hanim][quote]They are good at making lies.

Your true color comes to light, but since we're at it maybe I should disqualify you by reffering to the fabricated Red Cross report brought by the Azeris side, which resulted by the Red Cross accusation against the Azeris givernment. But I won't need to go there, only your characterisation of Armenians as people good at fabricating is a good indication of your moral character.[/quote]
I've got the right to say these words.
This is the proof how good armenians at telling lies:

Fadix, this letter was written by Holly Cartner, Executive Director, Human Rights Watch/Helsinki to the armenian forign minister who were spreading lies about Khojali and using HRW report for its wrong interpretations:


[quote]Quote:
Маch 24, 1997
Mr. Alexander Arzoumanian
Foreign Minister, Republic of Armenia
Marshal Baghramian Boulevard
Yerevan
By Fax: (3742) 151-042


Dear Mr. Arzoumanyan,

As Executive Director of Human Rights Watch/Helsinki (formerly Helsinki Watch), I wish to respond to the March 3 Ministry of Foreign Affairs statement regarding the 1992 slaughter of Azeri civilians in the town of Khojaly in Nagorno Karabakh. In it, the Ministry argues that the Popular Front of Azerbaijan was responsible for the civilian deaths, supporting this argument by referring to an interview with former President Ayaz Mutalibov and, incredibly
The Ministry statement reads: \". . the militia of the Azerbaijani National Front actively obstructed and actually prevented the exodus of the local population through the mountain passages specifically left open by Karabakh Armenians to facilitate the flight of the civilian population. On this matter, the September 1992 Helsinki Watch non-governmental organization report quotes an Azerbaijani woman who says that Armenians had notified the Azerbaijani civilian population to leave the town with white flags raised, in fact the Azerbaijani militia shot those who attempted to flee.\"


Our report indeed found that many residents of Khojaly may have had advance warning of the impending military operation, since Armenian forces had given an ultimatum to Alif Gajiyev, then head of the Khojaly militia, who in turn warned civilians. Our research and that of the Memorial Human Rights Center found that the retreating militia fled Khojaly along with some of the large groups of fleeing civilians. Our report noted that by remaining armed and in uniform, the Azerbaijani militia may be considered as combatants and thus endangered fleeing civilians, even if their intent had been to protect them.


[size=24]Yet we place direct responsibility for the civilian deaths with Karabakh Armenian forces. Indeed, neither our report nor that of Memorial includes any evidence to support the argument that Azerbaijani forces obstructed the flight of, or fired on Azeri civilians. For clarity's sake I cite our 1992 report (page 24):


\" . . . Thus, a party that intersperses combatants with fleeing civilians puts those civilians at risk and violates its obligation to protect its own civilians. . . .[T]he attacking party [i.e., Karabakh Armenian forces] is still obliged to take precautionary measures to avoid or minimize civilian casualties. In particular, the party must suspend an attack if it becomes apparent that the attack may be expected to cause civilian casualties that are excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.\"


\"The circumstances surrounding the attack . . .on those fleeing Khojaly indicate that [Karabakh] Armenian forces and the troops of the 366th CIS regiment . . .deliberately disregarded this customary law restraint on attacks. Nagorno Karabakh officials and fighters clearly expected the inhabitants of Khojaly to flee since they claim to have informed the town that a corridor would be left open to allow for their safe passage. . . Under these circumstances, the killing of fleeing combatants could not justify the forseeably large number of civilian casualties.\"


Please allow me to clarify another reference to our 1992 report, regarding the 1988 Sumgait pogrom. Our report reads: \"The most brutal of these events was the anti-Armenian pogrom in Sumgait, Azerbaijan, which took the lives of thirty-two Armenians, wounded hundreds more, and intensified the fears of ethnic Armenians living in other parts of Azerbaijan,\" which differs from the citation used in the Ministry statement. We further cited the estimate of 300,000-350,000 ethnic Armenians who fled Azerbaijan, not 600,000 as the Ministry statement seemed to attribute to our report.


We welcome the use of our reports by governments and intergovernmental organizations, and [size=18]we sincerely hope that there will be no further misrepresentation regarding the contents of our 1992 report. I thank you for your attention.


Yours sincerely,



Holly Cartner
Executive Director
Human Rights Watch/Helsinki




cc: Mr. Hasan Hasanov, Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Azerbaijan
Mr. Rouben Shugarian, Ambassador of the Republic of Armenia to the United States
Mr. Hafiz Pashayev, Ambassador of the Republic of Azerbaijan to the United States
Ambassador Peter Tomsen, United States Ambassador to Armenia
Ambassador Richard Kauzlarich, United States Ambassador to Azerbaijan [/quote]

As you see, Ive got right to think that armenians like telling lies.

[Azertos]

ohh sure sure, i guess you prefer this:
http://www.hairenik.com/armenianweekly/apr...history003.html
or this: http://www.hairenik.com/armenianweekly/jun...history002.html
and your famous Armenian forum: http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=6747

these are absolutely not ''biased''

[Fadix]

ohh sure sure, i guess you prefer this:
http://www.hairenik.com/armenianweekly/apr...history003.html
or this: http://www.hairenik.com/armenianweekly/jun...history002.html
and your famous Armenian forum: http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=6747

these are absolutely not ''biased''

Dude, I repeat, the author David Davidian is published, and I'd rather believe someone you does not hide under a proxy, unlike the authors from whos you take your materials. The last link, the references were mine, you could consider this as if I posted that freshly just here.

I repeat, I did not ask you what you think of the interpretation of the material, i've asked you what you have to say regarding the sources cited. But I haven't recieved any answers as of yet.

[Azertos]

Ignorance!!!! that's what it is......THE ARE NO SOURCES.....
all of your so-called sources are from the armenian sites...understood..capische???

I did not ask you what you think of the interpretation of the material

.

well sorryyy man....i just couldn't wait for your invitation....ridiculous.......your only claims are: Goltz and his ''team'' are payed by the Azeris.......and don't you have anything to say about the article posted by hanim....??

[Azertos]

you are very ignorant.....sending some posts of your Armenian sites and then blame us for not reading it.....i didn't even had the nerves to post here Azeri sites...and here you are , posting a ridiculous Armenian site to prove your point.

[Fadix]

Ignorance!!!! that's what it is......THE ARE NO SOURCES.....
all of your so-called sources are from the armenian sites...understood..capische???

I did not ask you what you think of the interpretation of the material

.

well sorryyy man....i just couldn't wait for your invitation....ridiculous.......your only claims are: Goltz and his ''team'' are payed by the Azeris.......and don't you have anything to say about the article posted by hanim....??

I'd quess your fooling yourself. Most of the materials I've posted at hyeforum are not available on the internet, the article from Le Monde is not available on the internet, the material brought by David Davidian is not available on the internet, the guy ;eft his contact info wide open for anyone that could contact and request the sources, he's done the exact same thing for years during his newsgroups participation.

Why am I here in the first place, where it seems people only understand gaga gougous..., maybe my registration was a mistake afteral.

[Fadix]

you are very ignorant.....sending some posts of your Armenian sites and then blame us for not reading it.....i didn't even had the nerves to post here Azeri sites...and here you are , posting a ridiculous Armenian site to prove your point.

Dude. don't you have the intellectual capability to understand the basic structure of others posts? I've been repeating you countless number of times, that the material at hyeforum was posted by me, it mainly contains articles from newspapers and magazines etc. The only other stuff I brought was brought by David Davidian, who cites his sources and has left his contact info so that people can contact him and ask for authentification of the sources he present.

Stop repeating like the bunny the same thing over again, since it makes other think that you're too dumb to understand.

[Azertos]

I am fooling myself, please... no no Fadix, your articles are indeed on internet, otherwise you wouldn't have been posting them here.. they are on internet, the tiny winy problem is that they are biased, they are one-sided, Armenian, i know for sure , that you would be saying the same thing if i posted some azeri websites......so pls spare me the innocent act.

[Azertos]

Stop repeating like the bunny the same thing over again, since it makes other think that you're too dumb to understand.

.


stop repeating the same old $hit, allright, it really takes too long for you to UNDERSTAND that there is no source, ok , lets make it this way....that article on the Armenian forum.....where have you got that...can you pls give me the site??? haaa....or the articles on your Armenian websites, can you give me exact the same articles on other international unbiased sites???

[Yerevan]

Fadix, it is obvious that those ignorant brainwashed liers, are going to repeat the same crap over and over. Neither of us will change their mind. Their brain is not capable of accepting the reality.

[Fadix]

Stop repeating like the bunny the same thing over again, since it makes other think that you're too dumb to understand.

.


stop repeating the same old $hit, allright, it really takes too long for you to UNDERSTAND that there is no source, ok , lets make it this way....that article on the Armenian forum.....where have you got that...can you pls give me the site??? haaa....or the articles on your Armenian websites, can you give me exact the same articles on other international unbiased sites???

I will ignore your previous answer, because you would not want to know what I think of you from it(which is basically questioning seriously your intelligence).

From where I got it? Here is the WHOLE thing I've been trying to make you understand. I GOT IT FROM DATABASIS from three universities, one from the proxy used, the two others checked there. That's what I AM TELLING YOU, the material IS NOT from an Armenian website, in that, I took it myself from a collection, I have myself access to the archives of the major Canadian newspapers through Faculty Proxy, if you don't believe me give me a random date, and I'll post you the articles from those dates.

I hope this time you got that.