Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims Options

[Azertos]

Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922
by Justin McCarthy

Princeton, N.J.: Darwin, 1995. 368 pp. $35

Middle East Quarterly
June 1996
Reviewed by Daniel Pipes

McCarthy has unearthed a horrifying and extremely important fact: that in the course of the century between the Greek war of independence and World War I, the Ottoman Empire suffered five and a half million dead and five million refugees. He deems this Europe's largest lost of life and emigration since the Thirty Years' War. Christian suffering in this time and place is well-known; McCarthy shows the other side, that "Muslim communities in an area as large as all of western Europe had been diminished or destroyed." His study minutely reviews the regions and wars, pulling information from foreign and Ottoman sources to produce a compelling account.

Beyond the tragedy involved, this pattern of death and exile has a profound historical importance. To take just three matters that the author raises: It puts into perspective the deportation of Armenians in 1915 and turns this from an act of hatred into one motivated by fear (had the Armenians, with Russian support, rebelled, Ottoman Muslims could have expected to be slaughtered). Also, this legacy explains the modest and circumspect foreign policy pursued by Atatürk; "as a land of recent refugee in-migration and massive mortality," his country was ready not to assert itself but to reform itself. Lastly, the massive immigrations to Anatolia mean that modern Turkey is (like France) a land of migrants; McCarthy estimates that one-fifth of the population descends from nineteenth-century refugees. This helps understand the country's acute sensitivity to current problems in Bosnia and Azerbaijan.

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/704

[Yerevan]

Here we go with Turkey's puppet McCarth again. The guy is a scum.
Justin McCarthys figures are often referred in various works, more particularly works which are considered by some to be supporting the Turkish government theses that the Armenian massacres do not constitute genocide.

Even though professor Justin McCarthy is a Western academic, his numbers of Armenian casualties are derived from his statistics of Armenian population which in their turn were derived from Ottoman record(by applying correction values), therefore, some scholars considers them Ottoman sources rather than a Western one. The way he proceeded is to subtract from his figures of Armenian population, the figure he calculated as survivors. And came to a little less than 600,000 as Armenian casualties for the period 1914 to 1922.[6] But as in the cases of his population his statistics are controversial. In a more recent essay of his, he project that if the Armenian records of 1913 were accurate, 250,000 more deaths should be added,[7] for a total of 850,000. McCarthy figures as well doesn't include the Armenian population losses from the Russian Armenia lands loss in the profit of the Ottoman Empire, and he is as well criticized of overestimating the survivor table. Frédéric Paulin goes as far as comparing his methodology with Rassiniers method in calculating the European Jewry losses during World War II.[8]

[Yerevan]

De Volkskrant

14 June 2005

McCarthy is a professional denier

By Ton Zwaan



Even though the term "genocide" was invented later, the Turkish act in 1915 against the Armenians was most definitely a genocidal process, says Ton Zwaan.

Under the tendentious title "Term 'genocide' for Turkish act demonstrably incorrect" (Term 'genocide' voor Turks handelen aantoonbaar onjuist), an article by the American historian Justin McCarthy was published in de Volkskrant (Forum, June 9).

In a groundless, hazy and disorderly argumentation replete with half-truths and complete untruths, McCarthy attempts to persuade his readers that an Armenian genocide never transpired in the Ottoman empire in 1915 and 1916. For the benefit of your readers, I would like to point out that in serious circles of scholars, a consensus has existed for quite some time of the main facts.

In the years involved an estimated one million members of the Armenian minority in the Ottoman Empire became victim of a meticulously planned and large-scale persecution, deportation and massacre.

This systematic persecution and destruction transpired with the initiative and under the leadership of the central government at that time in Istanbul. Even though the term 'genocide' did not exist then (it was only used for the first time in 1944), there can be no doubt that this involved a genocidal process.

The space here lacks to extensively examine McCarthy's argumentation, but contrary to what he claims, there was not a "terrible war between Turks and Armenians", nor a "great rebellion" by Armenians. He also cites the genocide-convention of the UN incompletely and falsely and confuses the terms "war" and "genocide".

His claim on the brilliant and brave Turkish author Orhan Pamuk is undoubtedly libelous and his remarks on the Turkish denial policy and their reports in American newspapers are silly and wholly unfounded.

Whoever wants to be informed of the true course of events can read recently published good studies, such as:

Donaid Bloxham: The Great Game of Genocide. Imperialism, Nationalism and the Destruction of the Ottoman Armenians (Oxford University Press, 2005);

Jay Winter (red.): America and the Armenian Genocide of 1915 (Cambridge University Press, 2003);

H.L. Kieser en D. Schaller (red.): Der Völkermord an den Armeniern und die Shoah (Chronos, 2003).

For a summary review in Dutch:

'De vervolging van de Armeniërs in . het Ottomaans-Turkse rijk, 1894-1922', in: Ton Zwaan, Civilisering en decivilisering (Boom, 2001).

Among bona fide historians McCarthy is known as one of the professional deniers, subsidized by the Turkish government.

The printing of an article such as that without further comment does not grace de Volkskrant.

Ton Zwaan is affiliated with the Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies of the NIOD and the University of Amsterdam.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


PHOTO: Armenian refugees, crowded in boats, looking for rescue on a French ship before the Syrian coast, October 1915. FOTO CORBIS


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Fact: Armenians were intentionally deported

By Jos Weitenberg

The article by Justin McCarthy on the Armenian genocide is in need of a reaction. McCarthy belongs to the few non-Turkish scholars who deny the existence of the Armenian genocide. His arguments have been the same for years. He shows no inclination to seriously consider the refutal of his fellow colleagues.

Two points stand out in his article. Firstly, the proposition that Armenians and Turks were equal opponents in a situation of war. This is a false depiction of the case.

The Armenians were victims of intentional deportation. The able-bodied men were summoned under weapons and killed. The deportations were aimed at unarmed women and children. The deportations were organized and systematically aimed at specific communities (Armenians and Syrians) and ended in the deserts of present Syria. That food was distributed by the Ottoman army, as the article claims, is refuted by countless eyewitness reports.

It is true that Armenians incidentally rebelled, that there were armed nationalistic revolutionaries and that crimes against the Turkish population were committed. To call this rebellion "war" is chutzpah. The discussion should at least be kept accurate.

Secondly, it is evident that McCarthy regrets the silence of the Turkish government on the events and declares this "out of fear that the Turkish population will seek revenge'. But on who? Since 1915 scarcely any Armenians live in Turkey, evidence in itself of a successful genocide. The few who dared to return after the war were indeed still (vengefully?) killed.

That the present Turkish population is unfamiliar with the ethnic cleansings - of Armenian, Syrians, Greeks and Kurds - that went hand in hand with the foundation of modern Turkey in the second and third decades of the twentieth century, is certainly regrettable. Turkey's wish to access the EU finally offers an opportunity to come to terms with these kind of facts.

McCarthy's article distorts and denies the facts and is not a useful addition to reconciliation.

Jos Weitenberg

The author is professor of Armenian Studies at Leiden University.

[Yerevan]

By the was why do I even bother? Hanim already aknowledged the Armenian Genocide. Azertos, just ask your friend Hanim, she'll tell ya. She posted this wonderful article.

http://middleeastinfo.org/forum/viewtopic....?t=6511&start=0

[Azertos]

hey Yerevan, do you mean Pipes is Scum a total looser, a man who takes Turkish bribes, who is a lier, a racist an Armenians Hater??? cos he wrote the article

is this your views of this well respected American Writer/Journalist?

well everyone can see now if its not how the Dashneks want it, if its not 100% anti-Turk, if it doesnt try to lie and deny that Turks suffered, if it exposed that Armenians made us suffer.
Pipes agrees with us Yerevan, you see you can't put the blindfold over people's eyes forever, as we have said the truth will emerge and what Armenians and others did to us will be exposed.

[Yerevan]

Don't change the subject, Azertos. Your own beloved country women aknowledge it. By the way I don't even know who Pipes is.

[Azertos]

maybe you should read the article attentively.....cuz you know, the article is reviewed by Daniel Pipes, a well respected American journalist/writer...
that shows me how you read stuff...........

[hanim]

By the was why do I even bother? Hanim already aknowledged the Armenian Genocide. Azertos, just ask your friend Hanim, she'll tell ya. She posted this wonderful article.
http://middleeastinfo.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6511&start=0

really?


MEIC EDIT - as Fremen wrote:After reading many PMs, here is the deal on Armenia/Turkey and General Dro/Nazi collaboration.
Any accusations from here on out pertaining to Armenian(Nazi) and or Turkey(Nazi) must use credible sources in hopes of ending the abuse of forum resources and attacks on posters. Any posting without my consent from here on out pertaining to the above mentioned will be banned.
Therefore the subject of General Dro/Armenian-Nazi/Turkey-Nazi ENDS NOW.
]http://middleeastinfo.org/forum/viewtopic....?t=6515[/color]

[Yerevan]

You two can't stick to one subject. As soon as you can't respond to our comments, you change the subject. I'm tired of your same old crap. I have no desire anymore to continue talking to you two losers.

[PhilinFL]

By the was why do I even bother? Hanim already aknowledged the Armenian Genocide. Azertos, just ask your friend Hanim, she'll tell ya. She posted this wonderful article.
http://middleeastinfo.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6511&start=0

really?
Have you ever aknowledged Dro being a fascist, the reason I brought up that author? Dro and Nzhde, national armenian heroes, are two ex fascists who were fascinated by Hitler's rasist theory.

Hamimeffendi, I don't mean to offend thee, but this post qualifies you to BE BANNED from the site...Didn't you see the stern warning about making this false accusation?

Should we report you, or do you want to retract your lie? Thank you.

[Azertos]

Yerevan, who's changing the damn subject???? ohh you mean the Pipes thing, as i said it is reviewd by him, by Daniel Pipes

[Yerevan]

Yerevan, who's changing the damn subject???? ohh you mean the Pipes thing, as i said it is reviewd by him, by Daniel Pipes

And your friend Hanim's comment about Dr being a fascist. I know we can't discuss that subject, otherwise I would be more than happy to show her some new articles I found aboutDro.

[Yerevan]

maybe you should read the article attentively.....cuz you know, the article is reviewed by Daniel Pipes, a well respected American journalist/writer...
that shows me how you read stuff...........

Oh WOW. The article was reviewd by the ALMIGHTY Daniel Pipes. His review was about what McCarty wrote in his book. Daniel Pipes sure proved me wrong. He really convinced the world that there was no Armenian Genocide.

GET OUT OF HERE. You think we were born yesturday? Get off those drugs.

[Fadix]

Yerevan, who's changing the damn subject???? ohh you mean the Pipes thing, as i said it is reviewd by him, by Daniel Pipes

Isen't it amazing that the same individual that brags a Khojali genocide also denies the second most studied genocide?

Well not, but too bad for you, you just raised my specialization regarding war crimes, which is the methodology of denial. I have also writen a paper of about a hundred page, with various reviews and links between Justin McCarthy, who was adviced by the Turkish National Grand Assembly to come and tell how to react, and the Turkish government.

I also have reviews on McCarthy and a review by a mathematician of his uses of the Theory of Stable population(which is a statistic technic), which he manipulate.

Consequently, Daniel Pipes is hardly trusted in the serious academic cycles, he also leads the Middle East Forum, http://www.meforum.org/ which is for the advancement of the American interest in the Middle East and which also is used to deny American abuses and support American interests such as Turkeys admission in the EU etc. It was also the same journal he runs that has published Lewys article denying the Armenian genocide, the same Lewy, that denies the genocide of American Indians, the Gypies genocide of World War II, which according to him doesn't qualify as genocide, as well as the abuses of the American army in Vietnam, all this because as a survivor of the Holocaust he thinks that the Jews have the "supremassy" of victimness.

But again, after what you've said in this thread and others, I don't expect you to take any reasonate decision neither being able to reasonate impartially on every subjects in which Armenians are directly or indirectly involved in.

[Azertos]

yessss i see you have nothing to say about the article huhhhh?? you are the only one on drugs here...........your typical comment .

[Azertos]

yeah yeah Fadix, everyone is bad who supports or agrees with us....we know your views.................Goltz is bad, Carter is bad, Pipes is bad........

[Fadix]

yeah yeah Fadix, everyone is bad who supports or agrees with us....we know your views.................Goltz is bad, Carter is bad, Pipes is bad........

This answer is just an evidences of what I; ve been pointing too.

One minute and a half after my post, you've answered someone else, and after that one, two minutes after, you've answered mine, which indicate that you don't even bother reading what I write before building your argumentation(if we can even call it argumentation.).

[Azertos]

maybe i read things fast or maybe i do not have to read your posts, cuz your message is the same.

[hanim]

By the was why do I even bother? Hanim already aknowledged the Armenian Genocide. Azertos, just ask your friend Hanim, she'll tell ya. She posted this wonderful article.
http://middleeastinfo.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6511&start=0

really?
Have you ever aknowledged Dro being a fascist, the reason I brought up that author? Dro and Nzhde, national armenian heroes, are two ex fascists who were fascinated by Hitler's rasist theory.

Hamimeffendi, I don't mean to offend thee, but this post qualifies you to BE BANNED from the site...Didn't you see the stern warning about making this false accusation?

Should we report you, or do you want to retract your lie? Thank you.

Im not discussing the subject but just bring it to your attention because you mention the same author which has been proven to be wrong in the forum.

You are free to report me if you wish. No need to threaten.

[Fadix]

maybe i read things fast or maybe i do not have to read your posts, cuz your message is the same.

It takes a little over a minute to read my answer, and at least 30 seconds to follow the link I've posted to see by yourself that Pipes admit himself what is the purpouses of his site. It takes about 20 seconds more for the brain to process an impression from which one will conceptualize an answer. From then, you'll have to answer, which will take few more seconds.

In short, and supposing there are no intervals between each process, you'll still be at least at two minutes, which basically means you haven't read all that was to be to answer back.

We are left with your second position, which is even not an argumentum ad consequentiæ, but a pretention of being one, and even I question it to be a pretention.

[Persian]

"ethnic cleansin of OTTOMAN muslims"

and what does this has to with Azerbaijan republic? NOTHING. the then Arran was never part of Ottoman Empire, but was part of Iran, then Russia.

This post belongs in another section.

[HBK]

Yerevan, the article by Ton Zwaan, which you provide, makes the following statement:

His claim on the brilliant and brave Turkish author Orhan Pamuk is undoubtedly libelous and his remarks on the Turkish denial policy and their reports in American newspapers are silly and wholly unfounded.

This is in reference to a statement made by Justin McCarthy about Orhan Pamuk. Would you happen to know what the statement was?

Fadix, I have to agree with you about Daniel Pipes and the Middle East Forum. This organization is one of many that have as their goal the reinforcement of US policies in the ME, policies which have absolutely nothing to do with democracy or human rights or justice but everything to do with propagandizing the US State Department's objectives.

For example, you could check Pipes' support for MEK: MEK: A Terrorist US Ally?. As another example, there is this older article: Why Syria and Turkey Gird for War, which contains gross inaccuracies such as "Known by its initials PKK, the Kurdistan Workers' Party has killed some 30,000 Turks in the pursuit of a breakaway Kurdish state and represents the number one problem in Turkey today."

The truth of the matter is that Turkey murdered some 30,000 Kurds, destroyed 4,000 Kurdish villages and ethnically cleansed 4 million Kurds. Daniel Pipes supports terrorist groups (MEK) which have a known history of targeting Americans for the sake of US policy regarding Iran, but he cannot even speak the truth about the war in Kurdistan (or PKK, which has never targeted Americans) and makes lies for the sake of a ménage à trois between the US, Turkey and Israel.

If he is now writing a review for a book whose author has questionable academic integrity, it must be because Daniel Pipes sees that the book supports whatever sick policies the US intends to carry out in the ME. Or he was paid for his endorsement. Or both.


By the way, Turks are capable of reading, but they are totally incapable of reading comprehension.

[PhilinFL]

HBK, note that the Pipes review is from nearly 10 years ago... Is anything written prior to OIF really relevant today?

Daniel Pipes is normally a thoughtful writer, but I think he's been brainwashed by Turkish propaganda on this issue. And the PKK's stance vis-a-vis democracy doesn't help.

Folks like Pipes see the history of WWII--the West supported Stalin & Tito vs Hitler...and wound up w/new tyrants instead of liberation. So another ~50 years of tyranny ensued...

[Dîrî]

HBK, note that the Pipes review is from nearly 10 years ago... Is anything written prior to OIF really relevant today?

Daniel Pipes is normally a thoughtful writer, but I think he's been brainwashed by Turkish propaganda on this issue. And the PKK's stance vis-a-vis democracy doesn't help.

Folks like Pipes see the history of WWII--the West supported Stalin & Tito vs Hitler...and wound up w/new tyrants instead of liberation. So another ~50 years of tyranny ensued...

Yes... Good point! I was starting to wonder what the hell was wrong with Pipes... The recent stuff he has written have not been THAT sick... They were in fact somewhat good in comparison to many others...

[Azertos]

I read the posts, the thing that I don't understand is the way you call Pipes a thoughtful writer, but then at the same time you say he's been brainwashed by turks, I mean if he's well respected , a good journalist, how the hell can he be brainwashed by Turks???Is he that dumb or stupid to not have his own opinion????


and Fadix pls save your investigations to yourself, I'm not into your psychological views!

[Fadix]

and Fadix pls save your investigations to yourself, I'm not into your psychological views!

Your answer doesn't in any way present a counter argument to my demonstration that shows that you simply have no capability to make sense.

[PhilinFL]

I read the posts, the thing that I don't understand is the way you call Pipes a thoughtful writer, but then at the same time you say he's been brainwashed by turks, I mean if he's well respected , a good journalist, how the hell can he be brainwashed by Turks???Is he that dumb or stupid to not have his own opinion????

Even thoughtful writers have blind spots or make errors. I wd be very surprised if Mr Pipes doesn't come around to a more skeptical view of Turkiye's policies down the road.

Mr Pipes, and more so his wonderful Dad, was educated during the Cold War, and we all were exposed to uniformly pro-Turkish (a NATO ally) reports...The Cold War is now over, and more importantly the Internet has made hitherto suppressed voices able to be heard, so we are able to see, for example, that the image we used to hold of Turkiye as a uniformly Turkish, peaceful, and democratic country WAS A CROCK.

[HBK]

PhilinFL, I purposely used that article of Pipes because in it he shows which side he's on very clearly in the reference to the 30,000 Turks being killed. 30,000 Turks were not killed. 30,000 Kurds were killed. That is like Bush saying, "Saddam gassed his own people." Saddam didn't gas his own people. Saddam gassed Kurds.

It reflects what Fadix mentioned about Pipes and the MEForum being propagandists for US foreign policy, a policy shaped by the DOS. I also think that it reflects a similar criticism that our Armenian brothers have against Justin McCarthy, that he is not speaking the truth but that, as Yerevan stated, he is "Turkey's puppet McCarthy."

Daniel Pipes is normally a thoughtful writer, but I think he's been brainwashed by Turkish propaganda on this issue.

Yes. I agree. I think this is also a function of serving US interests. Pipes does have a more recent article in which PKK is mentioned:

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3584

I do not believe that Pipes is very much an expert on Turkey, but the MEForum has someone else who is much more expert: Michael Rubin. As I have said before, Michael Rubin is one of those who defends US policy. This is a guy who does know the region, but he knows it in a very limited way, just as Daniel Pipes knows terrorism, but he knows it in a very limited way (i.e. neither of them know that there are Kurds in Turkey, except for PKK and neither of them knows that Turkey is a state sponsor of terror. . . and not only within Turkey).

As for PKK and democracy, I can address that on the Kurdistan forum.

[BIGTURK]

Look at the amount of squirming, spamming, diversions and denials on this post.

Guys stop freaking out, your gonna have a breakdown.

Now firstly it just shows how much certain people actually read, the post was about DANIEL PIPES article and review about the 5.5 million Muslims or more who were Genocided in this time period.

There is nothing to deny this is fact and your local hero Pipes agrees

HBK
I purposely used that article of Pipes because in it he shows which side he's on very clearly in the reference to the 30,000 Turks being killed. 30,000 Turks were not killed. 30,000 Kurds were killed.

SOURCE IT OR REMOVE IT.

The group Hbk, is in support of, is an INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNISED TERRORIST ORGANISATION.

They are a Marxist Terrorist Mercenary gang who kill and rape woman and slaughter little babies and caused so many Innocent people to die and the region and people they CLAIM to support being less prosperous, the area recieving less investment and an array of other problems due to them.

So Pipes HBK is on the side of protecting the INNOCENT against the TERRORISTS, you know the ones who were killing Innocent TOURISTS this summer, the ones who killed young girls and their mothers this summer and blew up passenger trains yes THOSE TERRORISTS.


This post has EXPOSED peoples lack of Sincerity on the forum.

Phil
Daniel Pipes is normally a thoughtful writer, but I think he's been brainwashed by Turkish propaganda on this issue.

JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZ

Just prove my point why dont you, anything and anyone who doesnt express a deep pathological hatred of Turkey is just a stupid brainwashed puppet, wether it be Goltz or McCarthy even now PIPES.

I though Pipes was sooo fantastice Phil, you always use his material, you are the staunch defender of Pipes and would attack anyone who attacked him lol its so funny how things change.

All of a sudden, Pipes is a moron. He can't see things, the great Pipe can't see what Phil can whats happening Phil, is Pipes such an idiot and a fool that he can allow himself to be nothing but a puppet and a tool of the Turks, is that your opinion of your hero Pipes

Pipes is just commenting on a fact, DO YOU PHIL DENY THAT OVER 5.5 MILLION OF OUR PEOPLE WERE ETHICALLY CLEANSED HA, OPEN YOUR MIND, ITS YOU WHO IS A SLAVE TO THE ANTI-TURKISH PROPOGANDA AND PIPES HAS WOKEN UP, WHY DONT YOU FOLLOW YOUR IDOL AND WAKE UP ASWELL

Phil
that the image we used to hold of Turkiye as a uniformly Turkish, peaceful, and democratic country WAS A CROCK.

Another typically ignorant and naive view.

You go around talking about the "spreading of Democracy" but the only Democratic Muslim nation in the region is the country which you attack the most

It speaks volumes for the " we come to spread Democracy" Nonsene, its all words and means very little you cant back up the words.

Tell me another Democratic Muslim Nation in the region?

Shall I tell you one? TURKISH KIBRIS and the West wont even recognise it

Now would you take a look to Turkeys borders and region, to every side over the past 80 years there has been War, Dictatoriship, Communism and Tyranny do you think its easy to stay a Democracy and Stable in such a situation? add to that Asala and Pkk Terrrorism.

You had Two Towers blown up in the U.S and now America is charging around the world blowing up Nations.

After the tragedy, your human rights and civil liberties have been restricted and tighened, Security increased, more money spent on Arms and Security forces.

This is after ONE TRAGEDY PHIL.

Turkey has had 80 years of Tragedy on its borders, if anyone an American should understand what situation that brings and why liberties and rights are restricted, is it necessary who knows? but do you want Security or Death and Terror? thats the question.

Now there is a bit more stability with Turkey and its border nations (except Armenia), even with Greece relations have improved and the result, more Civil Liberties and Human Rights given, the Death Penalty abolished, Reforms and relaxations.

Your leaders can see it, I dont understand why you can't.


Lets look at an Extract from the book.


From Chapter Six: The Final War in the East
"The conflict between Muslims and Armenians of the Ottoman East, which had been developing for a hundred years, came to a climax during World War I. Two wars were fought at the same time in the east -- a war between Ottoman and Russian armies and an intercommunal war between Armenians and Muslims of eastern Anatolia and the southern Caucasus. In terms of civilian and military losses, the wars fought in the east between 1914 and 1920 were among the worst in human history. The result of Ottoman weakness, Russian imperialism, European meddling, and Armenian revolutionary nationalism was widespread devastation. After the wars, cities such as Van, Bitlis, Bayazit, and Erzincan were largely rubble. Thousands of villages were destroyed. Millions on both sides had died. The Armenians, who revolted to gain a nation, were left with a Soviet republic in which they were not their own masters. The Turks, who ultimately won the wars, were left with a country in ruins."

"Armenian revolutionaries seized the city of Van from the Ottoman government on 13 and 14 April 1915 and held it against besieging Ottoman troops who had been quickly brought up from Bitlis and the Russian front. The Russians took advantage of the revolt. Against the lightly held Ottoman frontier, they sent a force made up of Armenian volunteer units (approximately 4,000 Armenians, mainly from the Caucasus), Armenian guerilla units (from the Caucasus and Anatolia), and a brigade of Red Cossacks. By the middle of May, these forces had reached Van and were threatening Bitlis. When the Ottoman forces besieging Van withdrew to concentrate on the defense of Bitlis, the Russian units entered Van (31 May 1915). They were deliriously welcomed by the local Armenian population…

"… During the first year of the war, the Ottomans were occupied with Armenian revolts all over eastern Anatolia. Only the revolt in Van was successful, but the other revolts caused great loss of life and significantly harmed the Ottoman war effort. The Armenians of Zeytun, always restive under Ottoman control, rebelled in August of 1914, before the war began, primarily as a protest against conscription. Their initial revolt was suppressed, but broke out again in December with attacks on Ottoman gendarmes. From then until deportations of Armenians finally ended the revolt, the Armenians of Zeytun waged guerilla war against the Ottomans. In June 1915, the Kara Hisar-I Sarki was seized by Armenian revolutionaries. They were quickly driven out of most of the town, but held citadel against Ottoman troops. Because of the speedy Armenian defeat, few Muslims were killed. However, Armenian bands in the countryside near kara Hisar attacked and killed Muslim villagers. Armenian bands and local Armenian revolutionaries rebelled in Urfa and 29 September 1915. The Armenian quarters of the city were taken and held against local gendarmerie forces, Muslim houses were burned and Muslim civilians killed. In the Urfa rebellion, it was necessary to divert Ottoman troops to the city to defeat the rebels, who were armed with machine guns. After the defeat, 2,000 Armenians were sent from Urfa to Mosul under heavy guard.

The revolts in the eastern cities were reflected in the countryside of the Ottoman East. Armenian revolutionaries attacked Muslim villages, and Armenian villages were in turn attacked, primarily by Kurds…"

THE ARMENIAN REVOLUTION
"Not coincidentally, the Armenian revolt in the eastern Anatolia began as soon as the Russians realized that the Ottoman Empire would go to war. Before Russia declared war on 2 November 1914, Armenian guerillas had already begun to organize into guerilla bands. In preparation for revolt, Armenian revolutionaries had stored vast stockpiles of weapons, largely provided or paid for by the Russian government. These were kept primarily in Armenian villages and were obviously well-hidden from Ottoman authorities, an indication of the lack of Ottoman control in the region before the war… With weapons stored for the expected revolution, Ottoman citizen Armenians began to arm themselves and organize on both sides of the border. Bands were formed in the Kars-Ardahan-Artvin border regions (which had been taken from the Ottomans in 1878) and in Van, Erzurum, and Bitlis vilayets.

"When war was declared, the Armenian revolutionaries mobilized. Anatolian Armenians who had previously gone to Russia reentered the Ottoman Empire and led guerilla groups. One band of more than a thousand was organized by a former Armenian deputy to the Ottoman Parliament, Garo Pasdirmajian (Armen Garo). Famous guerilla leaders such as Andranik, who had led the 1895 Armenian revolt, organized the Anatolian revolutionaries and enrolled thousands of new recruits, including Armenians from Iran. In the Russian Caucasus, the Dashnak Party recruited members for guerilla bands that would enter the Ottoman Empire. The bands included both "Russian" and "Turkish" Armenians, although to the guerillas themselves such a distinction would have been all but meaningless.

"Armenian guerilla units went through Armenian villages, recruiting men and assisting or forcing (depending on which version one ascribes to) Armenians to migrate to areas of Russian control… Around 6,000 to 8,000 Armenian guerillas, primarily from Mus, Van, and Bitlis, gathered in the area of Kagizman and were organized and trained by Russians. Another group of approximately 6,000 Anatolian Armenians was trained and organized in Igdir and formed into guerilla bands. The Ottoman army estimated that 30,000 armed men from Sivas Vilayeti alone joined the Armenian forces, probably an exaggerated number, but indicative of a great and long-planned rebellion…"
…..
"At first, Ottoman military units, mail deliveries, gendarmerie posts, and recruiting units were attacked in Mus, Sitak, Susehri, Zeytun, Aleppo, Dortyol, and many other areas… Between five hundred and six hundred Armenian rebels occupied the Tekye Monastery and fought a bloody, day-long pitched battle with Ottoman troops and gendarmes, escaping from Ottoman troops at night… In Diyarbaki Vilayeti, a combination of Armenian villagers and Armenian deserters formed bands and attacked Muslim villages and Ottoman troops. Unprotected Muslim villages were assaulted and Muslims massacred, although the murders could not compare to what was later to befall the Muslims of the east.

"Armenian plans to take eastern cities were brought into force once the war began. For the sake of understanding the chronology of massacre and countermassacre in the region, it should be understood that these and other revolutionary activities took place well before any orders for deportation of Armenians were given."


THE WHOLE BOOK CAN BE READ HERE

http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=94404771

THE ETHNIC CLEANSING OF OVER 5.5 MILLION OF OUR PEOPLE IS ONE OF THE CRIMES OF THE LAST CENTURY AND WILL BE REMEMBERED AND EXPOSED SO SIMILAR CRIMES ARE NOT REPEATED.

[Dîrî]

THE ETHNIC CLEANSING OF OVER 5.5 MILLION OF OUR PEOPLE IS ONE OF THE CRIMES OF THE LAST CENTURY AND WILL BE REMEMBERED AND EXPOSED SO SIMILAR CRIMES ARE NOT REPEATED.

You mean Ethnic Cleansing of Kurds by Turkey?

[BIGTURK]

No its very clear what is written, stop spamming and diverting or you will be reported.

[Dîrî]

No its very clear what is written, stop spamming and diverting or you will be reported.

Report me, Turk... Who cares? I just asked a RELEVANT QUESTION...

[Dîrî]

No its very clear what is written, stop spamming and diverting or you will be reported.

Report me, Turk... Who cares? I just asked a RELEVANT QUESTION...

[BIGTURK]

There is no need to post the same comment twice, there is no need to divert or change the topic, over 5.5 million of our people were slaughtered in the last century, this was a tragedy.

[Dîrî]

There is no need to post the same comment twice, there is no need to divert or change the topic, over 5.5 million of our people were slaughtered in the last century, this was a tragedy.

1) Not my fault - technical problem...

2) What "our people"? You mean the OTTOMAN... Remember? Atagû washed his hands clean of the Ottoman... And this thread is about the Ottoman - hundred years - up untill 1922...

[BIGTURK]

Well you can delete the post Sohrab.

This is about a human tragedy, many of your people died because of the invaders and ethnic cleansers aswell but it doesnt bother you cos you just wanna attack us and make us look bad when ever you can even if it means turning your back on your own people.

Our people were suffering starting 90 years b4 WW1 and it got worse and worse up untill the War were the Genocides became extreme.

A revolution was needed to get rid of the corrupt Ottoman Sultan of the time who was too weak and corrupted to fight. The people rose ordinary people, not for money or funds but for their right to exist, to protect their families and land and not allow what had happened to them in other areas to happen here. Men, Woman both united stood firm and fought as legendary Gazi's and became Shehids in the Noblest of causes and to this day I can only Love and Admire these truly heroic and brave people and marvel at the way their courage and never say never attitude actually caused them to win the War against all the odds.

5.5 Million slaughtered, 5 million made refugees, these facts will not be ignored.

[Dîrî]

Well you can delete the post Sohrab.

This is about a human tragedy, many of your people died because of the invaders and ethnic cleansers aswell but it doesnt bother you cos you just wanna attack us and make us look bad when ever you can even if it means turning your back on your own people.

Our people were suffering starting 90 years b4 WW1 and it got worse and worse up untill the War were the Genocides became extreme.

A revolution was needed to get rid of the corrupt Ottoman Sultan of the time who was too weak and corrupted to fight. The people rose ordinary people, not for money or funds but for their right to exist, to protect their families and land and not allow what had happened to them in other areas to happen here. Men, Woman both united stood firm and fought as legendary Gazi's and became Shehids in the Noblest of causes and to this day I can only Love and Admire these truly heroic and brave people and marvel at the way their courage and never say never attitude actually caused them to win the War against all the odds.

5.5 Million slaughtered, 5 million made refugees, these facts will not be ignored.

Well, Emrah - technically speaking - I can't delete it anymore - since there are posts AFTER that double post... So no...

I will reply to the rest tomorrow... I need sleep...

[PhilinFL]

<<You go around talking about the "spreading of Democracy" but the only Democratic Muslim nation in the region is the country which you attack the most

It speaks volumes for the " we come to spread Democracy" Nonsene, its all words and means very little you cant back up the words.

Tell me another Democratic Muslim Nation in the region?

...do you think its easy to stay a Democracy and Stable in such a situation?>>

I do not consider any country which bans a popular language on pain of imprisonment to be a democracy. The regular military coups which have "re-shuffled the political cards" when society strays too far from what the military deems acceptable is all the proof anyone needs. Do you deny the fact of these regular coups? WTF do you think they represent?

Turkey is a unique, cunning Asiatic authoritarian state. It is NOT completely unfree, but it fundamentally follows the model of "tribal chiefs make the decisions...everyone else must abide by them...the little ants out in the street who cast votes don't actually control the policies of the government."

Hey, man, don't be embarassed, it's not that bad, Turkey cd be a lot worse...it cd be like Iraq was! Or Egypt! You're WAY ahead of the Arabs (at least for now).

[HBK]

The TURK writes:

HBK, blah, blah, blah

So I have a soft spot in my heart for PKK. Get over it already. EVERYBODY F'ING KNOWS IT! Deal with it. I mean it should be obvious by now that I don't give a damn that you call me a terrorist.

You are the real terrorist, always supporting the terrorist Ankara/Gray Wolf REGIME, the same regime that has been genociding Kurds for almost 90 years.

[PhilinFL]

BT, do you deny that people have a right to resist genocide? Don't the Kurds have the right to resist the annihilation of their language and their culture? Didn't they have that right in the past? Didn't you admit that Saint Ataturk made a terrible error [crime] by killing Sheik Said and crushing his movement?

What is your problem w/Kurds defending themselves?

[BIGTURK]

Shamefully none of you have expressed a tear of sympathy for the 5.5 million of our people ethnically cleansed, almost the same amount of Jews which were slaughtered during the Holocoust were killed but hey it obviously means nothing and just shows how much Human Compassion you guys have.

Phil grow up and stop living in a world of Conspiracies which have been fed to you by another member of this forum

The last Coup was in 1980 and was due to a state of almost Civil War between Communists and Non-Communists.

We have democratic elections, we vote in who we like.

I mean Turkey now has more relaxed and liberal laws than America You still have the Death Penalty, why dont you abolish it?

Wether you like it or not, Turkey has been progressing and if you look at its region you will understand how tough this is with all your borders in War and Tyrannies around you how unstable this makes the region.

But still even with all these problems around, were moving forward.

No Country is perfect Phil, I could just as easilty turn around and say the way Blacks were treated for hundreds of years in America means you are an embarrasment to the word Democracy but as I said nobody is perfect and if you only focus on the Bad its bias. You have to be objective and look at issues from all sides of the spectrum. Turkey isnt perfect but Phil tell me a Nation that is.

HBK
So I have a soft spot in my heart for PKK.

Well dont ever let me hear you have the audacity to insult or ridicule any other Terrorist Organisations because all you are is a proven hypocrite with sever double standards. You cried for months about Ansar Al-Islam and still do about Islamist Extremist groups operating in North Irak.

You are a supporter of an Internationally Recognised Terrorist Org, you are no different to any other Terrorist supporters so dont pretend you are, you are no better than them Terrorism is Terrorims end of story.

Now I really suggest you Read the book, that is what the post is about.


Chapter One: The Land
To Be Lost


The exile and mortality of the Muslims is not known. This goes against modern practice in other areas of history. It has rightly become unthinkable today to write of American expansion without consideration of the brutality shown to Native Americans. The carnage of the Thirty Years’ War must be a part of any history of
religious change in Europe. Historians cannot write of imperialism without mention of slaughter of Africans in the Congo or of Chinese in the Opium Wars. Yet, in the West, the history of the suffering of the Balkan, Caucasian. and Anatolian Muslims has never been written or understood. The history of the Balkans, the Caucasus, and Anatolia has been written without mention of one of its main protagonists, the Muslim population. The “traditional” view of the history of the Balkans, the Caucasus, and Anatolia is less than complete, if not misleading, because the histories of the Ottoman minority groups are taken out of context. A major part of that context is the suffering of Muslims, which took place in the same regions and at the same time as the sufferings of Christians, and often transcended them. The few who have attempted to alter the traditional view have been derided as “revisionists “as if revision were an academic sin and contextual historical accuracy irrelevant. In fact, revising one-sided history and changing deficient traditional wisdom is the business of the historian, and in few areas of history is revision so needed as in the history of the Ottoman peoples. The history that results from the process of revision is an unsettling one, for it tells the story of Turks as victims, and this is not the role in which they are usually cast. It does not present the traditional image of the Turk as victimizer, never victim, that has continued in the histories of America and Europe long after it should have been discarded with other artifacts of nineteenth-century racism.