Israels Stand On Assyrians Options

[paris]

Why would modern hebrew hate Assyrians for what they did to the ancent hebrews. Different time.

hebrews live's trhu there's past
and ther'is no futur without a past.

[Udi John]

I have lived in Israel. I believe that Sammy's reply accurately reflects the attitude of educated Israelis (and those with roots in Iraq) towards the modern Assyrian Christian minority: sympathy for a non-Arab, non-Muslim minority trying to survive in an often hostile environment. I believe that, among less-well-educated educated Israelis, especially those who are religiously observant ("Orthodox"), opinions on the Assyrians are colored by ancient history (Assyrians as conquerers and oppressors) and many may not even be aware of the existence today of Assyrian Christians in northern Iraq and northern Iran.

Interestingly, one of the few sympathetic books about Jews written by a non-Jew in the Arab world was by Yusuf Rizk-Allah Ghanimah, an Iraqi Assyrian Christian: http://www.amazon.com/Nostalgic-Trip-into-...s/dp/0761812253 (first published in 1924)

Peace/Shalom/Salaam/Shalama/Khoda Hafez,
John

[Sanharib]

Shlama Udi I didn't know about this book. Do you know how many Assyrians in Israel live?

[Udi John]

Shlama Sanharib,

I don't know that many Assyrian Christians live in Israel. I have to assume that the Assyrian Church of the East, like most Eastern Churches, has some kind of official presence in Jerusalem. (The following article mentions a poorly-attended church in the Old City: http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/modul...splaystory.html )

As far as other Syriac churches, there are a few Maronite villages in the Galilee that ended up on the Israeli side of the Israel/Lebanon border in 1948, such as Kafr Bir’im/Kfar Biram; and the Syrian Orthodox Church "owns" a small portion of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem.

Of course, there is a pretty large Assyrian community here in California, USA. The qanoun player in my band is the son of an Assyrian immigrant from Urmia.

When I finally have some spare time, I hope to organize a lecture/performance of Jewish Aramaic and Christian Syriac chants here is Berkeley, CA, where I live.

All the best,
John

[concheet]

Hi Udi John,
Welcome aboard. In your spare time, do check out the General Discussion : http://www.middleeastinfo.org/forum/index.php?showforum=1 here at MEIC

There was a question there regarding Aramaic -- you might want to contribute to that thread and others. Always happy to have another voice of reason and uncommon sense.

Concheet

[Udi John]

Hi Concheet,

Thanks for your kind welcome. I hope I merit your complimentary descriptions!

Peace,
John

[concheet]

Well, we will see. If you agree with me on most issues, you will of course be a voice of reason and uncommon sense. Otherwise you are just a damn fool, like everyone else.

Anyway, here is a link to the Aramean thread in question http://www.middleeastinfo.org/forum/index....showtopic=13225

I think you would have something to offer here as they are talking about the sound of the language.

Shalom to you as well.

[Sanharib]

But really they/we are no Arameans. They (Assyrians mostly from Turkey) just speak another dialect of our language. We KNOW that we speak Aramaic, Jesus himself spoke Aramaic BUT he wasn't an Aramean, he was a Israeli and a Jew. An Afro-American isn't an ethnic Anglo-Saxon just because he speaks English. Know what I'm saying brothers? They (Assyrians from Turkey) call themselves "suryoyo/suryaye" well if you set an A in front of Suryoyo you get: Asuryoyo. We (Assyrians from North-Iraq) call ourselves "Suraye/Suraya" ---> Asuraya. So we aren't Arameans, we are god-fearing Assyrians!


I will show you this, VERY very interesting:

http://www.zindamagazine.com/ThisWeek/02.1...t.php#literatus


A stone with a 2800 year old inscription sheds new light on today’s Assyrian identity and the relation between the terms Suroyo, Suryoyo and Asuroyo. According to Prof. Robert Rollinger the question is solved. ”Suroye or Suryoye means nothing else than Assyrians”

Peace

[Udi John]

But really they/we are no Arameans. They (Assyrians mostly from Turkey) just speak another dialect of our language. We KNOW that we speak Aramaic, Jesus himself spoke Aramaic BUT he wasn't an Aramean, he was a Israeli and a Jew. An Afro-American isn't an ethnic Anglo-Saxon just because he speaks English. Know what I'm saying brothers? They (Assyrians from Turkey) call themselves "suryoyo/suryaye" well if you set an A in front of Suryoyo you get: Asuryoyo. We (Assyrians from North-Iraq) call ourselves "Suraye/Suraya" ---> Asuraya. So we aren't Arameans, we are god-fearing Assyrians!
I will show you this, VERY very interesting:

http://www.zindamagazine.com/ThisWeek/02.1...t.php#literatus
A stone with a 2800 year old inscription sheds new light on today’s Assyrian identity and the relation between the terms Suroyo, Suryoyo and Asuroyo. According to Prof. Robert Rollinger the question is solved. ”Suroye or Suryoye means nothing else than Assyrians”

Peace

Shlama Sanharib,

Let me preface my comments by saying that I really have no problem with Syriac Christians in/from Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran calling themselves "Assyrian" or "Chaldean."

Once, I read a pamplet by a Palestinian publicist named W.F. Abboushi. He claimed, "The Jews are not an ethnic group, but they have an ethnic psychology." This made me laugh so hard it hurt. What is ethnicity if not psychology? The modern definition of an "Arab" is someone who speaks Arabic and identifies as an Arab--it's really comes down to psychology. Eighty years ago, there was no such thing as an "Israeli" OR a "Palestinian" identity. The fact that both evolved in modern times doesn't make them any less real--or less valid--in my opinion.

Therefore, I don't have any problem with you calling yourself "Assyrian."

However, for the purposes of understanding history and the development of ethnic identities, I would like to ask the question: What elements of the culture of ancient Assyria do the modern Assyrians preserve?

1) Language? Have the modern Assyrians preserved the language of ancient Assyria? My understanding is that the Assyrian language was Akkadian. Modern Assyrians speak, write, and pray a different (though related) language, a dialect of Aramaic.

2) Religion? Have the modern Assyrians preserved the religion of ancient Assyria? The ancient Assyrians were pagans; modern Assyrians are Christians.

3) Arts & crafts? Do the Assyrians have any arts or crafts traditions that are distinctly derived from ancient Assyrian culture and have had a (more or less) unbroken transmission from that time until now?

4) Cultural practices? Do the Assyrians have any traditions such as music, cuisine, agricultural practices, etc. that are distinctly derived from ancient Assyrian culture and have had a (more or less) unbroken transmission from that time until now?

Even if the answer to all of these questions is no, I don't object to you calling yourself "Assyrian," especially if you are not using that claim as a justification to claiming land for your community that is arguably legally occupied by someone else. Knowing how much the Assyrians have been persecuted, I am even less inclined to deny them their identity. However, I hope we are mature enough to acknowledge when identities are not as ancient as we would like to believe.

Palestinians often claim to be descendants of the Canannites (and/or Philistines), but how much real proof is there for this claim? Ask the above questions. The fact that the Palestinians are so beaten down should make us sympathetic to their search for means to press their case before the world, but I don't like it when people fabricate their own history while denying someone else's. Now ask those 4 questions about the Jews...

The fact that a people inhabits the same area as people who lived there millenia in the past may well indicate that they are descended from those ancient people, but it's not absolute proof. Take your African-American example: African-Americans and European-Americans have inhabited the southeastern United States for 400 years now, but that doesn't prove that they are descendants of Native Americans.

Whether modern Assyrians are directly descended from ancient Assyrians is not a topic I feel I need to raise. More importantly, we in the West should be doing everything we can to support Assyrians, who are being pushed out of Iraq while Iraq is being occupied by the U.S., a predominantly Christian country. This is scandalous!

However, if SOMEONE ELSE raises the question, I am always happy to share my views about history and culture!

Shlama Lakhun,
John

[Sanharib]

Shlamalukh and thank you Udi.

Well I can answer you number 1, 3 and 4

1) Language? Have the modern Assyrians preserved the language of ancient Assyria? My understanding is that the Assyrian language was Akkadian. Modern Assyrians speak, write, and pray a different (though related) language, a dialect of Aramaic.

Akkadian words in today's Assyrian speech

Scroll down: http://christiansofiraq.com/assyria1.html


3) Arts & crafts? Do the Assyrians have any arts or crafts traditions that are distinctly derived from ancient Assyrian culture and have had a (more or less) unbroken transmission from that time until now?

yes:
Early Assyrian Churches and Monasteries in northern Iraq

http://christiansofiraq.com/monastery.html


4) Cultural practices? Do the Assyrians have any traditions such as music, cuisine, agricultural practices, etc. that are distinctly derived from ancient Assyrian culture and have had a (more or less) unbroken transmission from that time until now?

On 1 April we celebrated "Kha 'b Nissan" this was a festival for the goddes "Ishtar"


Look

Ancient Time: http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/1871/ishtargatedn2.jpg

Present Time:
http://www.bethsuryoyo.com/currentevents/6...ration/Pic3.jpg
http://www.bethsuryoyo.com/currentevents/6...romSyria/19.jpg
http://www.bethsuryoyo.com/currentevents/6...romSyria/18.jpg
http://www.bethsuryoyo.com/currentevents/6...romSyria/12.jpg


Now this is very interesting look at the ancient crown, and the crown that Assyrian women are wearing.

http://christiansofiraq.com/pict.html




Thanks again for your post Udi

[Mordoth]

But really they/we are no Arameans. They (Assyrians mostly from Turkey) just speak another dialect of our language. We KNOW that we speak Aramaic, Jesus himself spoke Aramaic BUT he wasn't an Aramean, he was a Israeli and a Jew. An Afro-American isn't an ethnic Anglo-Saxon just because he speaks English. Know what I'm saying brothers? They (Assyrians from Turkey) call themselves "suryoyo/suryaye" well if you set an A in front of Suryoyo you get: Asuryoyo. We (Assyrians from North-Iraq) call ourselves "Suraye/Suraya" ---> Asuraya. So we aren't Arameans, we are god-fearing Assyrians!
I will show you this, VERY very interesting:

http://www.zindamagazine.com/ThisWeek/02.1...t.php#literatus
A stone with a 2800 year old inscription sheds new light on today’s Assyrian identity and the relation between the terms Suroyo, Suryoyo and Asuroyo. According to Prof. Robert Rollinger the question is solved. ”Suroye or Suryoye means nothing else than Assyrians”

Peace

But Aramic language sounds perfect

Not like Arabic . But its script is a little bit different than Arabic .

[Sanharib]

Not like Arabic . But its script is a little bit different than Arabic .

Yes because it is a semitic language : -)

[Udi John]

Shlama Sanherib,

I opened the links looked briefly at the word list and the rosettes. I am neither a linguist nor an archaeologist, but, if that is the kind of proof that is being offered to establish a DIRECT ancestral link between ancient Assyrians and modern Assyrians, I can understand why many scholars would be skeptical.

First, very, very few of the words that appear on the word list are identical between Akkadian and modern Assyrian. There are clearly RELATED, typically have the same shoresh (3 or 4 consonant root), but look to me like what linguists call "cognates," for example: "Blood" = Akkadian "Adamu"; Assyrian "Dimma"; Hebrew "Dam" etc. Numerous cognates is precisely what we would expect among related Semitic languages. This seems to me to support the notion that Akkadian and Assyrian are different, but related languages.

Regarding the rosettes: Rosettes have always been a fairly common decorative motif in the Near East (though it's not quite as easy to find examples on-line as I would have expected!). Here is an example from Pharaonic Eygpt: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14400/14400...ages/fig285.png You can see other examples: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14400/14400-h/14400-h.htm (see figures 237, 239, etc.).

These are just my thoughts, and, as I said, are not really relevant in my mind as to whether is okay or not for modern Assyrians to call themselves "Assyrian."

Shlama Lukh & Shabta Shlama,
John

[Sanharib]

This is really interesting, but what do you have to say about the other examples?

[Udi John]

Shlama Sanherib,

You mean the conical hats and the Spring festival? I think those are possibly 2 solid pieces of evidence, but I doubt most scholars would be convinced in the absence of more extensive linguistic and cultural evidence.

On the other hand, I don't ever remember anyone presenting solid proof that the Assyrian Christians are NOT descending from the ancient Assyrians, but the world doesn't work that way...

Is there reputable literary evidence that Syriac-language Christians in northern Iraq, Iran, Syria, etc. identified themselves as "Assyrian," "Chaldean," etc. prior to contact with Western Christian missionaries?

Shlama Lukh,
John

[Sanharib]

Is there reputable literary evidence that Syriac-language Christians in northern Iraq, Iran, Syria, etc. identified themselves as "Assyrian," "Chaldean," etc. prior to contact with Western Christian missionaries?

Shlama Lukh,
John

No not the hat I meant the crown that Assyrian women were wearing.

I have asked me this question often, so I am the wrong guy to answer that^^ But I KNOW that we always called ourselfs "Surayeh or Suryoye".

Maybe some of the Assyrians in this board can answer you that question.

P.S. I think there was a song before Austen Henry Layard came to Iraq, I think it's called "Nishra 'd Atour or Nishra 'd Tkhuma (Eagle of Assyria/Tkhuma)

[Hosank]

you must understand that few languages do not develop over time..
for example, french of the middle ages (wroughly 1000) years ago, is almost incomprehensible in modern french today

so i doubt that an Assyrian language of over 2000 years would be identical to modern Assyrian

[Israel_Pundit]

Hello all, i am new to the forum and as the name suggests i'm a Jew from Israel.

the Assyrian community in israel numbers a few hundred people and they have a church in the Jewish Quarter in Jerusalem. most Jews are mostly unaware of the Assyrian survival through the ages and are uninformed of the matter. I think Jews may be quite sympathetic to the Assyrian cause once the situation is explained, as a fellow semitic race to withstand the ages.

Politically, the relationship between Israel, Turkey and Kurdistan may complicate the issue. nonetheless, Israel does maintain cordial relations with the Kurds despite the enemity between the Kurds and Turkey. In that aspect, the Assyrians are much less of a threat to turkey than the kurds, as the Assyrian minority in Turkey is not so big, and the recognition of the Assyrian genocide is being looked upon as more or less a by-clause to recognition of the armenian genocide and does not carry out severe geopolitical aspects (as with the severe effects of recognition on the Azeri-Armeni conflict).

also, genetic research indicates with great probability that the Assyrians are indeed the descendents of who they claim they are.

[Sanharib]

Thank you for your post Israel_Pundit

[Israel_Pundit]

Thank you for your post Israel_Pundit

you are most welcome. i hope we will see more positive developments on the Assyrian issue and relations with Israel.

[Udi John]

Shalom Israel_Pundit,

Barukh haba...welcome to the forum. Where in Israel do you live? I lived in Akko in 1993.

Interesting about the genetic study of Assyrians. As one with a social science background (mostly sociology), I tend to be skeptical about scientific "proofs" about people's physical origins. I know about the Y-chromosome testing that was done a few years ago among various Jewish communities and between Jews and others (found the closest genetic match to all Jews--even Ashkenazi Jews--to be found among Palestinians, Lebanese and Syrians). What I don't understand is how one could genetically test living Assyrian Christians for a match with the long-dead ancient pagan Assyrians.

As far as Hosank's comment that languages would be expected to change over 2,000 years, this is obviously true. However, there must be some Assyrian Aramaic/Syriac texts available to study which are closer in time to that of the Assyrian Empire. Do these texts tend to demonstrate that earlier Assyrian Aramaic was closer to (or the same as) Akkadian?

I suspect that this discussion of the language of Assyria (taken from Wikipedia) is a fair summary of scholarly opinon, which views Akkadian and Aramaic as different languages:

"The ancient people of Assyria spoke an Assyrian dialect of the Akkadian language, a branch of the Semitic languages. The first inscriptions, called Old Assyrian (OA), were made in the Old Assyrian period. In the Neo-Assyrian period the Aramaic language became increasingly common, more so than Akkadian - this was thought to be largely due to the mass deportations undertaken by Assyrian kings, in which large Aramaic-speaking populations, conquered by the Assyrians, were relocated to other parts of the empire. The ancient Assyrians also used the Sumerian language in their literature and liturgy, although to a more limited extent in the Middle- and Neo-Assyrian periods, when Akkadian became the main literary language." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria#Language)

A similar situation, I think, exists with respect to the Copts of Egypt. They regard themselves as the descendants of Pharaonic Egypt. I suspect that this claim is only true in a cultural sense. That is, I don't see any reason to regard Copts as being the physical descendants of Pharaonic Egyptians moreso than other Egyptians (i.e., Muslim Arabs), but they have preserved a form of the ancient Egyptian language in their liturgy, though written in a modified Greek alphabet. (I believe that scholars generally agree that Coptic is recognizably a form of ancient Egyptian language(s).)

Like the Copts, the Assyrian Christians clearly deserve a great deal of credit (and respect) for preserving important elements of the culture of pre-Islamic, pre-Arabization Fertile Crescent in their religion (Eastern Christianity) and language (Syriac/Aramaic). At the same time, I am not convinced that there is enough evidence to prove that Assyrian Christians (and Chaldean Christians) are direct physical descendants of the ancient empire(s) more than other peoples living in the region.

By the way, has anyone read this book, which happens to be by an Israeli scholar? Is it worth the $45 + shipping: http://www.amazon.com/Minorities-Middle-Ea...n/dp/0786413751

Kol tuv,
John

[Israel_Pundit]

Shalom Israel_Pundit,

Barukh haba...welcome to the forum. Where in Israel do you live? I lived in Akko in 1993.

Interesting about the genetic study of Assyrians. As one with a social science background (mostly sociology), I tend to be skeptical about scientific "proofs" about people's physical origins. I know about the Y-chromosome testing that was done a few years ago among various Jewish communities and between Jews and others (found the closest genetic match to all Jews--even Ashkenazi Jews--to be found among Palestinians, Lebanese and Syrians). What I don't understand is how one could genetically test living Assyrian Christians for a match with the long-dead ancient pagan Assyrians.

As far as Hosank's comment that languages would be expected to change over 2,000 years, this is obviously true. However, there must be some Assyrian Aramaic/Syriac texts available to study which are closer in time to that of the Assyrian Empire. Do these texts tend to demonstrate that earlier Assyrian Aramaic was closer to (or the same as) Akkadian?

I suspect that this discussion of the language of Assyria (taken from Wikipedia) is a fair summary of scholarly opinon, which views Akkadian and Aramaic as different languages:

"The ancient people of Assyria spoke an Assyrian dialect of the Akkadian language, a branch of the Semitic languages. The first inscriptions, called Old Assyrian (OA), were made in the Old Assyrian period. In the Neo-Assyrian period the Aramaic language became increasingly common, more so than Akkadian - this was thought to be largely due to the mass deportations undertaken by Assyrian kings, in which large Aramaic-speaking populations, conquered by the Assyrians, were relocated to other parts of the empire. The ancient Assyrians also used the Sumerian language in their literature and liturgy, although to a more limited extent in the Middle- and Neo-Assyrian periods, when Akkadian became the main literary language." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria#Language)

A similar situation, I think, exists with respect to the Copts of Egypt. They regard themselves as the descendants of Pharaonic Egypt. I suspect that this claim is only true in a cultural sense. That is, I don't see any reason to regard Copts as being the physical descendants of Pharaonic Egyptians moreso than other Egyptians (i.e., Muslim Arabs), but they have preserved a form of the ancient Egyptian language in their liturgy, though written in a modified Greek alphabet. (I believe that scholars generally agree that Coptic is recognizably a form of ancient Egyptian language(s).)

Like the Copts, the Assyrian Christians clearly deserve a great deal of credit (and respect) for preserving important elements of the culture of pre-Islamic, pre-Arabization Fertile Crescent in their religion (Eastern Christianity) and language (Syriac/Aramaic). At the same time, I am not convinced that there is enough evidence to prove that Assyrian Christians (and Chaldean Christians) are direct physical descendants of the ancient empire(s) more than other peoples living in the region.

By the way, has anyone read this book, which happens to be by an Israeli scholar? Is it worth the $45 + shipping: http://www.amazon.com/Minorities-Middle-Ea...n/dp/0786413751

Kol tuv,
John

Hey,

I live in tel-aviv.

Regarding the Assyrians, quoting from the relevant research:

Analysis of the Assyrians shows that they have a distinct genetic profile that distinguishes their population from any other population. "It is important to understand that this applies to the population as a whole, not to any one individual."

...

The study thus does two things: it confirms the uniqueness of the Assyrian population as a whole, and it establishes genetics as a major criterion of a population group, potentially overriding elements such as language, religion, and other social and historical components which were formerly considered to be primary determinants. (David Nissman)


it's not solid proof, but it's as close as one can get, and considering linguistic traditions and the lack of other predominant or even possible theory, i'd give them the benefit of the doubt at least.

but overall i'm pretty unhappy about mixing genetics with politics. i'd also give the copts the benefit of the doubt. i've had the chance to talk to some copts and was quite pleased to see their survival through the ages. they attest to a great history as well.

[Israel_Pundit]

double post. the joy of invision. ah!

[Rumtaya]

Shalom Israel_Pundit,

Barukh haba...welcome to the forum. Where in Israel do you live? I lived in Akko in 1993.

Interesting about the genetic study of Assyrians. As one with a social science background (mostly sociology), I tend to be skeptical about scientific "proofs" about people's physical origins. I know about the Y-chromosome testing that was done a few years ago among various Jewish communities and between Jews and others (found the closest genetic match to all Jews--even Ashkenazi Jews--to be found among Palestinians, Lebanese and Syrians). What I don't understand is how one could genetically test living Assyrian Christians for a match with the long-dead ancient pagan Assyrians.

As far as Hosank's comment that languages would be expected to change over 2,000 years, this is obviously true. However, there must be some Assyrian Aramaic/Syriac texts available to study which are closer in time to that of the Assyrian Empire. Do these texts tend to demonstrate that earlier Assyrian Aramaic was closer to (or the same as) Akkadian?

I suspect that this discussion of the language of Assyria (taken from Wikipedia) is a fair summary of scholarly opinon, which views Akkadian and Aramaic as different languages:

"The ancient people of Assyria spoke an Assyrian dialect of the Akkadian language, a branch of the Semitic languages. The first inscriptions, called Old Assyrian (OA), were made in the Old Assyrian period. In the Neo-Assyrian period the Aramaic language became increasingly common, more so than Akkadian - this was thought to be largely due to the mass deportations undertaken by Assyrian kings, in which large Aramaic-speaking populations, conquered by the Assyrians, were relocated to other parts of the empire. The ancient Assyrians also used the Sumerian language in their literature and liturgy, although to a more limited extent in the Middle- and Neo-Assyrian periods, when Akkadian became the main literary language." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria#Language)

A similar situation, I think, exists with respect to the Copts of Egypt. They regard themselves as the descendants of Pharaonic Egypt. I suspect that this claim is only true in a cultural sense. That is, I don't see any reason to regard Copts as being the physical descendants of Pharaonic Egyptians moreso than other Egyptians (i.e., Muslim Arabs), but they have preserved a form of the ancient Egyptian language in their liturgy, though written in a modified Greek alphabet. (I believe that scholars generally agree that Coptic is recognizably a form of ancient Egyptian language(s).)

Like the Copts, the Assyrian Christians clearly deserve a great deal of credit (and respect) for preserving important elements of the culture of pre-Islamic, pre-Arabization Fertile Crescent in their religion (Eastern Christianity) and language (Syriac/Aramaic). At the same time, I am not convinced that there is enough evidence to prove that Assyrian Christians (and Chaldean Christians) are direct physical descendants of the ancient empire(s) more than other peoples living in the region.

By the way, has anyone read this book, which happens to be by an Israeli scholar? Is it worth the $45 + shipping: http://www.amazon.com/Minorities-Middle-Ea...n/dp/0786413751

Kol tuv,
John

Shalom Brother,

here is a long text, with diffrent kind statments connecting todays Assyrians to those of the anicent time...

take your time to read it, the source from where the diffrent statments were taken are included!

http://www.christiansofiraq.com/facts.html




To the Assyrians Language which developed, if you would have read abit about the Assyrian Empire, then you might find out, that the Assyrians used the aramic language as an lingua franca within their Empire!


Also a point is, that Assyria was a vast populated area, with not only semetic people! so to be Assyrian is the national identiy connecting to its old history and its devlopments made in the time after the Assyrian Empire.



Just looking away from the Name Assyrian, there are some easy things to see, which can connect us easily to the Assyrians of anicent time.


1. our location and were we live, is the North Iraq,south Turkey,northeast Syria this was the Assyrian Homeland as you can see in this map:



You see were it is wirtten Assyria? around that place we have our homeland, even the biggest Assyrian populated area is at our last capitol of Assyrian Empire Nineveh...

and then you see on the left side where it stands Aram, this was the heartland of Arameans, now Aram today is south Syria and Syrias population is arabic today, with around 2 million christians, of whom 500 000 see themselves as Assyrians, mostly living in northern Syria...I am also from there....now living in Germany

to see that, here is a map of the current Iraq population


Assyrian areas in red...

2. The Language thing...

Assyrians talked the northern Dialect of the Akkadian Language, after the Assyrians came in touch with the Arameans, they used their alphabet since it was not like the akkadian made up of diffren hundred scripts, but of 21 letters....

here is something you can read

Assyrians have used two languages throughout their history: ancient Assyrian (Akkadian), and Modern Assyrian (neo-syriac). Akkadian was written with the cuneiform writing system, on clay tablets, and was in use from the beginning to about 750 B.C.. By 750 B.C., a new way of writing, on parchment, leather, or papyrus, was developed, and the people who brought this method of writing with them, the Arameans, would eventually see their language, Aramaic, supplant Ancient Assyrian because of the technological breakthrough in writing. Aramaic was made the second official language of the Assyrian empire in 752 B.C. Although Assyrians switched to Aramaic, it was not wholesale transplantation. The brand of Aramaic that Assyrians spoke was, and is, heavily infused with Akkadian words, so much so that scholars refer to it as Assyrian Aramaic.



Language

The ancient people of Assyria spoke an Assyrian dialect of the Akkadian language, a branch of the Semitic languages. The first inscriptions, called Old Assyrian (OA), were made in the Old Assyrian period. In the Neo-Assyrian period the Aramaic language became increasingly common, more so than Akkadian - this was thought to be largely due to the mass deportations undertaken by Assyrian kings, in which large Aramaic-speaking populations, conquered by the Assyrians, were relocated to other parts of the empire. The ancient Assyrians also used the Sumerian language in their literature and liturgy, although to a more limited extent in the Middle- and Neo-Assyrian periods, when Akkadian became the main literary language.


Assyrian used a kind of assimilation throw out displacing people, that alos had the effect, that the Empire wouldnt be under uprisings...there was even Assyrian Kings of aramean Origin, who were proud of the Assyrian beeing....


3. A religious point, the Fasting of the Ninevets...the story, where jonah came to the Assyrians of Nineveh to tell them, if they not get away from their pagan life, god would destroy the city....after that the King orded that the people of this city with all its people, animals to hold a 3 day fasting....

This fasting is still done by us....

The men of Nineveh will come up in the day of judging and give their decision against this generation: for they were turned away from their sins at the preaching of Jonah; but now something greater than Jonah is here.

Luke 11:32


peace

[Sanharib]

yes rumtaya put a very good point into this discussion, in the ancient capitals of Assyria (ninive, Assur) there are the most Assyrians still today. (nineveh Plains)

[Udi John]

Shlama Rumtaya,

I did read about how the Assyrian Empire switched from Akkadian to Aramean as the lingua franca. In fact, the text you quote is identical to the one I read (on Wikipedia).

What about the Chaldean Christians? Are they descended from the ancient Chaldeans?

Shlama Lukh,
John (A.K.A. "Yochanan" and sometimes even "Youhana" )

[Hosank]

as a fellow semitic race to withstand the ages.

hmm..the arabs and pheonecians are also fellow semetic races..yet you don't seem to mind fighting them..

but, are Assyrians, syriacs, chaldeans and achadians all of the same people?

[Udi John]

hmm..the arabs and pheonecians are also fellow semetic races..yet you don't seem to mind fighting them..

but, are Assyrians, syriacs, chaldeans and achadians all of the same people?

Parev Hosank,

I should probably let Israel_Pundit answer for himself, but I want to point out that the Lebanese group which regards itself as being descended from the Phoenicians is the Maronites, who have a history of cooperation with Israel.

I think the feeling behind Israel_Pundit's comment has to do with sympathy for fellow non-Arabs in the Middle East, who, like the Jews of the Arab world, had to (and still have to) struggle to maintain their culture and identity against the dominant Arab-Muslim culture. Another possible sentiment, which I have heard frequently from Israelis, is that non-Arabs (Kurds, Amazigh [Berbers], etc.) and non-Muslims (Christian Arabs, Maronites, Copts, etc.) are less anti-Jewish and less anti-Israel than the majority Muslim Arab population.

Peace,
John

[Sanharib]

Yes "Chaldeans" and "Syriacs" belong to us and we are the same people. The name Chaldean appeared when the so called chaldeans entered the roman catholic church.

[Rumtaya]

Shlama Rumtaya,

I did read about how the Assyrian Empire switched from Akkadian to Aramean as the lingua franca. In fact, the text you quote is identical to the one I read (on Wikipedia).

What about the Chaldean Christians? Are they descended from the ancient Chaldeans?

Shlama Lukh,
John (A.K.A. "Yochanan" and sometimes even "Youhana" )

Shalom Youkhana,


well about the chaldean Christians I can quoute you this:

The Vatican documents indicate that when the Chaldean Church was established by Sulaga in 1553, Pope Julius III proclaimed him patriarch of "Mosul and Athur" on Feb. 20, 1553. (Catholic Encyclopedia, "Chaldean Rite ", 1967, Vol. III, pp.427-428) Roman documents originally refer to Sulaga as the elected patriarch of "the Assyrian Nation". (Xavier Koodapuzha, "Faith and Communion in the Indian Church of Saint Thomas Christians, Oriental Institute of Religious Studies, Kerala, India, p.59)

According to the Chronicle of the Carmelites Sulaga was proclaimed "Patriarch of the Eastern Assyrians" but on 19, 4, 1553 he was redefined as the "Patriarch of the Chaldeans". Perhaps the change of mind was intended to distinguish between those who joined the Catholic Church verses those who did not or may be it was a matter of associating these new Catholics with the Nestorians of Cyprus who were labeled Chaldeans by Pope Eugene IV on August 7, 1445 after they joined the Roman Catholic church. (George V. Yana (Bebla), "Myth vs. Reality" JAAStudies, Vol. XIV, No. 1, 2000 p. 80)


http://www.christiansofiraq.com/facts.html

I hope that helps you do get a Idea about the Chaldean Church...

[Israel_Pundit]

Parev Hosank,

I should probably let Israel_Pundit answer for himself, but I want to point out that the Lebanese group which regards itself as being descended from the Phoenicians is the Maronites, who have a history of cooperation with Israel.

you got that one almost 100% correct. most maronites refer to themselves as Arab despite being descendants of the Phoenicans. among those, at least half of them do not sympathize with us at all and hate us. but we do have noticable sympathy and even cooperation with those that do, and an even tighter cooperation with the fringe group that totally rejects arabism. it is quite interesting to note that many have a cognitive dissonance - they despise israel yet admie the very same leader that cooperates with israel as a "true patriot" - i'm referring to Etienne Saqr (a.k.a abu arz).

I think the feeling behind Israel_Pundit's comment has to do with sympathy for fellow non-Arabs in the Middle East, who, like the Jews of the Arab world, had to (and still have to) struggle to maintain their culture and identity against the dominant Arab-Muslim culture.

that is correct. there is a lot of cronyism by calling the west as imperialist, while at the same time, oppressing every aspect that disrupts the arab muslim hegemony in the area.

Another possible sentiment, which I have heard frequently from Israelis, is that non-Arabs (Kurds, Amazigh [Berbers], etc.) and non-Muslims (Christian Arabs, Maronites, Copts, etc.) are less anti-Jewish and less anti-Israel than the majority Muslim Arab population.

that is correct as well. they were less prone to being dragged into the Arab-Israeli conflict and less prone to be dragged to both Pan-Arabism or Pan-Islamism.

[Udi John]

Shalom/Salaam/Shlama/Parev Ladies & Gentleman,

I hope I haven't hurt anyone feelings or made anyone feel attacked by opening this discussion. I have asked questions and played "devil's advocate" only because I am interested in hearing what you all have to say.

Unfortunately, there is a good deal of writing on these issues that is highly contentious, ideologically/nationalistically motivated, and historically questionable. While surfing the Web yesterday for info on these issues, I came across this example: http://www.passia.org/meetings/rsunit/Arti...August-2005.htm . This Lebanese Christian Arabist author rejects the idea of Maronite descent from Phoenicians, Coptic descent from Pharaonic Egyptians, repeats the (well debunked) "Khazar Theory" of Ashkenazi Jewish origins, and even posits an Arab identity for Middle Eastern Christians which predates the Muslim Conquest. (What would he say about the Assyrians, I wonder?)

Anyway, I just wanted my motivations to be clear.

Peace,
John

[Sanharib]

Hey Udi look at this, this is in the new Zinda Magazine:



Arabs, The Moslem Assyrians


David Gavary
California

Who or what is an Arab? It is very difficult but not impossible to define its ethnic terms. The Arabs might be a nation but in a legal sense they are not as yet a nationality. A person who claims is an Arab should describe her or himself in passport or other international corresponds as of Iraqi, Jordanian, Syrian, Lebanese, Yemeni, Saudi Arabian, Libyan, Kuwaitis, Sudanese, Tunisian, Algerian, Moroccan etc. There are Arab states, and indeed a league of Arab states, but as yet there is no single Arab state of which all Arabs are nationals. But if Arabism has no legal .... click at the link to read more

http://www.zindamagazine.com/ThisWeek/05.2...x_mon.php#bravo

But really, I don't believe that, there might be some arabs that have mixed up with Assyrians but not much :S

[Udi John]

Shlama Sanharib,

That is a pretty good example of the tendentious writing I'm talking about, though I don't disagree with everything he says. The problem for anyone who is trying to educate himself about these issues is that there tends to be two polar opposite narratives about the Arab identity of the Middle East and North Africa, i.e.,

1) Arab nationalist version: The area of the Fertile Crescent was "Arab" land and inhabited by "Arabs" prior to the Muslim Conquest. The usual argument presented is that the inhabitants were predominantly Christian Arabs. (For examples, see the Passia.com article I cited previously; William Dalrymple, "From the Holy Mountain" http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Mountain-Journe...e/dp/0805061770 .) Muslim rule is benevolent toward non-Muslim minorities.

2) Near Eastern/North African minority nationalist version: In the area currently referred to as the "Arab World," Arabs are neither indigenous nor the descendants of indigenous people but are "invaders" and "occupiers." One author (Bat Ye'or) mocks the notion of a Christian Arab and speaks of, "Christians masquerading as Arabs." Muslim rule toward non-Muslim minorities was and is unremittingly repressive (See Bat Ye'or's works for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_Ye'or ).

These two propagandistic versions have seriously warped many people's thinking. Once, a Christian Palestinian Arab friend of mine, after a long conversation, felt she had to call me back and leave me a message to tell me she was "so upset" at me for pointing out the that the inhabitants of Pharaonic Egypt were not Arabs ( Duh!).

Shalom/Salaam/Shlama/Khoda Hafez,
John

[KHAZARI]

MOST THE PEOPLE IN ISRAEL DONT KNOW EVEN WHO Assyrian EXISTING. SO THEY NOT HATE Assyrian........