British Historian Norman Stone: There Is No Armenian Genocide Options

[prot9999]

British Historian Norman Stone: There is No Armenian Genocide

Saturday , 21 October 2006

* British Historian Norman Stone Says That There is No Armenian Genocide and he was Ready to be Prisoned by France

* Armenian Question

“The Armenian ‘genocide’ is an imperialist plot.” So said Dogu Perincek, in Marxist mode, and he chose to say it in Switzerland. Switzerland passed a law threatening prison for anyone ‘denying’ that there had been a genocide of the Ottoman Armenians in 1915, and Mr. Perincek was interrogated by the police.

There have been similar events in other countries and now we have the French parliament passing a law that is harsher than the Swiss one – a year’s prison and a heavy fine. This is a ridiculous and contemptible business – bad history and worse politics. It is also financially very grubby indeed. We all know how the American legal system can work: lawyers will agree to work for nothing, in return for a share of the profits at the end of a court case. Court cases are very expensive and it can simply be easier for banks or firms or hospitals to agree to make a payment without any confession of liability, just because fighting the case would be absurdly expensive, and the outcome – given how the American jury system works – unpredictable. A burglar, crawling over a householder’s glass roof, fell through it, was badly wounded, and took the householder to court: result, a million dollars in damages. Class actions by Armenian Diaspora descendants in California shook down the Deutsche Bank over claims dating back to 1915 and collected 17,000,000 dollars; then they attempted the same with a French insurance company. We can be entirely certain that if Turkey ever ‘recognizes the genocide’ then the financial claims will follow.

But if Turkey refuses to admit it, she is in fact on perfectly good ground. The very first thing to be said is that the business of ‘genocide’ has never been proved. The evidence for it is at best indirect and when the British were in occupation of Istanbul they never found any direct evidence or proof at all. They kept some hundred or so prominent Turks in captivity on Malta, hoping to find some sort of evidence against them, and failed. They asked the Americans if they knew anything and were told, no. The result is that the alleged ‘genocide’ has never been subjected to a properly-constituted court of law. The British released their Turks (meanly refusing to pay for their journeys back home from Malta). There is a counter-claim to the effect that this happened because the Nationalist Turks were holding British officers hostage but the fact is that the Law Officers simply said that they did not have the evidence to try their captives.

Diaspora Armenians claim that ‘historians’ accept the genocide case. There is some preposterous organization called ‘association of genocide scholars’ which does indeed endorse the Diaspora line, but who are they and what qualifications do they have? Knowing about Rwanda or Bosnia or even Auschwitz does not qualify them to discuss Anatolia in 1915, and the Ottoman specialists are by no means convinced of the ‘genocide’. There is in fact an ‘A’ team of distinguished historians who do not accept the Diaspora line at all. In France, Gilles Veinstein, historian of Salonica and a formidable scholar, reviewed the evidence in a famous article of 1993 in L’Histoire. Back then the Armenian Diaspora were also jumping up and down about something or other, and Veinstein summed up the arguments for and against, in an admirably fair-minded way. The fact is that there is no proof of ‘genocide’, in the sense that no document ever appeared, indicating that the Armenians were to be exterminated. There is forged evidence. In 1920 some documents were handed to the British by a journalist called Andonian. She claimed that he had been given them by an Ottoman official called Naim. The documents have been published as a book (in English and French) and if you take them at face value they are devastating: here is Talaat Pasha as minister of the Interior telling the governors to exterminate the Armenians, not to forget to exterminate the children in orphanages, but to keep it all secret. But the documents are very obviously a forgery – elementary mistakes as regards dates and signatures. At the time, in 1920, the new Armenian Republic was collapsing. Kazim Karabekir was advancing on Kars (which fell almost without resistance) and the Turkish Nationalists were co-operating with Moscow (in effect there was a bargain: Turkey would abandon Azerbaijan and Russia would abandon Anatolian Armenia). The Armenians were desperate to get the British to intervene and save them, by landing troops at Trabzon. However, the British (and still more the French) had had enough of the problems of Asia Minor and were in the main content to settle with the new Turkey. Andonian’s documents belong in that context. The chief Armenian ‘genocidist,’ V.Dadrian, still passionately defends the authenticity of these documents but the attempt does not do much credit to his scholarship: for instance, to the claim that the paper on which these documents were written came from the French school in Aleppo, he answers that there was a paper shortage (leading the Ottoman governor to ask a French headmaster if he could use some of his school-paper? Not very likely). The Naim-Andonian documents have incidentally never been tested in a court. The British refused to use them and a German court subsequently waved them aside. They have since disappeared – not what you would have expected had they been at all that is the sum total of the evidence as to ‘genocide’. Otherwise you are left with what English courts call ‘circumstantial evidence’ – i.e. a witness testifying that another witness said something to someone. Such evidence does not count. In the past three years Armenian historians have apparently been going round archives ın two dozen countries to find out what they contain – the Danish archives for instance. What they contain is what we knew already – that an awful lot of Armenians were killed or died in the course of a wartime deportation from many parts of Anatolia. Did the Ottoman government intend to exterminate the race, or was it just a deportation that went horribly wrong?

As to this, the experts are divided. A deportation gone wrong is the verdict of many of the best qualified historians – Bernard Lewis, Heath Lowry, Justin McCarthy, Yusuf Halacoglu. Other historians who know the old script and the background believe that it was a premeditated campaign of extermination, and some of these historians are Turkish (Mete Tuncay and Selim Deringil, unless I am taking their names in vain). There is a Turkish historian, Taner Akcam, whose book, based on the war-crimes trials set up in the early period of the British occupation, is obviously scholarly and who accepts the genocide thesis (though he does stress that the process cannot be compared with what happened in Nazi Germany to the Jews). In view of these divisions among scholars it is simply scandalous that the French or any other parliament should decree what the answer is. But it is worse, because the Armenian Diaspora can be extremely vindictive. For instance, Gilles Veinstein, as a reward for his quite dispassionate article, faced a campaign of vilification. He had become a candidate for the College de France, which elects the very best scholars in the country to give seminars. The historians very much welcomed this: he is an extremely serious scholar. But the Armenian Diaspora organized a campaign against him, especially among the mathematicians for some reason. One of them, a Professor Thom, was told that, on the whole, the French historians supported Veinstein and did not like the genocide thesis. His answer: ‘they are all Ottomanists,’ as if that somehow disqualified them. The fact is that the Armenian Diaspora have never taken this affair to a proper court of law. Instead, they try to silence men such as Veinstein. There was an extraordinary episode in American publishing two years ago. A very well-known historian, Gunther Lewy, who was a professor at the University of Massachusetts and author of several books still in print on modern German history, wrote a book on the Armenian massacres on the basis of German documents. The book is valuable because it shows how Dadrian twisted the German evidence. He offered it to his usual publisher, Oxford University Press (New York branch). A report was commissioned from one Papazian – not exactly a celebrity – who identified what he claimed were tremendous inaccuracies: they turn out either not to be inaccuracies, or just little slips of the kind anyone might make. On that basis Lewy’s manuscript was refused on the grounds that he had taken up ‘Turkish denialist discourse’. He found another publisher, the University of Utah Press. And lo and behold the senior Armenian historian in the USA, Richard Hovannisian (University of California) wrote in protest to the President of that University to complain about the publication. Be it said, incidentally, that the last two volumes of Hovannisian’s History of Independent Armenia are a well-written and fair-minded account – in some ways, even a classic of historical writing (the earlier two volumes are not of the same class).

Now, there is something very wrong here. If you believe that you are right, and then you will let evidence speak for itself, and if you face opposition you will simply expect to win the argument one way or the other. Attempts to silence opposition, to boycott lectures by, say, Justin McCarthy, to bully or manipulate foreign politicians – all of that surely argues that the Armenians themselves know their case is very far from being overwhelming. In any case it does nothing whatsoever for Armenia. If you go to eastern Turkey and Kars, look across the border at Armenia. It is very poor, and will continue so if there is no commerce with Turkey. The only obvious industry is the issue of visas for Moscow or the USSR (or for that matter Turkey, where up to 100,000 ex-Soviet Armenians live). The place obviously lives off Diaspora money (and the spread of American fast-food places now means curiously enough that the inhabitants are becoming obese in the manner of some Americans). In Soviet times Armenia had a population approaching three million. Then came independence and the war over Karabagh. The population dwindles and declines every year and is now not much above 1,500,000 – of all absurdities, in other words, independence has caused the Armenians to lose twice as many as vanished in the supposed ‘genocide’ of 1915. There is in other words a sickness at the heart of this whole frankly preposterous affair.

What should Turkey do? If the French law does pass then Turks must be prepared to act, otherwise they risk being landed with enormous bills for compensation. It will take organization. I would volunteer, myself, to provoke some trouble in France: it would be very easy indeed for me to give a public lecture and just to point out what is wrong about the whole thesis of the ‘Armenian genocide’ – I might even just read out Veinstein’s article (or another important one by the then leading German general, Bronsart von Schellendorf). The French government probably would be mad enough to put me in prison for a while (this was done to a well-respected French historian of slavery, whose crime had been to point out that many Africans were involved in the slave trade and that some slaves volunteered for transportation because it saved them from cannibalism). But someone has to make a stand against the ridiculous misuse of parliamentary power and the instructing of historians what they must say about an event nearly a century old in a country two thousand kilometers away with a language that very few people can now read.

---
Norman Stone (1941-) is a British historian of modern Europe, especially Central and Eastern Europe. He is the author of ''Europe Transformed, 1878-1919.'' Stone was born in Edinburgh, Scotland. Between 1984-1997, he served as professor of Modern History at the University of Oxford.

Tranlated German language to English by Olgun


Prot9999:

Historian can telling real history with evidence. Here are real historian and telling all about Armenians. Armenians did NEVER genocided, but armenians to be KILLED lots of Turkish peoples in Anatolia. History can never changed with armenian lies.

Regards,

[irlandahay]

* British Historian Norman Stone Says That There is No Armenian Genocide and he was Ready to be Prisoned by France



[b] Historian can telling real history with evidence. Here are real historian and telling all about Armenians. Armenians did NEVER genocided, but armenians to be KILLED lots of Turkish peoples in Anatolia. History can never changed with armenian lies.

Regards,

there is an error in your first sentence... prisonned by france... you wrote pirsoned...its prisonNed. second...we say EMprisonNed...not prisoned. so either you forged your document or you took it from a turkish source. in both cases it scratches your argument.

and so what if some british "historian" denies genocide? so what if your genius professionnal genocide denier justin mccrapthy does the same. the proof leans towards our side. you can take alook around...were sorta winning the battle.

and your last sentence is my personnal favourite.

"armenians did never genocide, armenians be killed by lots of turks in anatolia" couldnt have put it any better myself prot il see you on april 24th

[prot9999]

Historians are denied, what is for this? Peoples should beleive historians or cheaters?

there is an error in your first sentence... prisonned by france... you wrote pirsoned...its prisonNed. second...we say EMprisonNed...not prisoned. so either you forged your document or you took it from a turkish source. in both cases it scratches your argument.

Original documents are German language, i'm putting here English translate. Turkish language documents based from National archives. Here your "original documents"? We still dont see and "original armenian documents"

armenians did never genocide, armenians be killed by lots of turks in anatolia" couldnt have put it any better myself prot il see you on april 24th

April 24 for us "Armenian Traitors day". Because Armenians terorist dogs were tried killed Ottoman Sultan 24th April. What you do think 31 March Azeri Genocide Day by Armenians?

Regards,

[irlandahay]

Historians are denied, what is for this? Peoples should beleive historians or cheaters?
Original documents are German language, i'm putting here English translate. Turkish language documents based from National archives. Here your "original documents"? We still dont see and "original armenian documents"
April 24 for us "Armenian Traitors day". Because Armenians terorist dogs were tried killed Ottoman Sultan 24th April. What you do think 31 March Azeri Genocide Day by Armenians?

Regards,

I swear to god this guy doesnt speak english!

[mv]

[...] As to this, the experts are divided. A deportation gone wrong is the verdict of many of the best qualified historians – Bernard Lewis, Heath Lowry, Justin McCarthy, Yusuf Halacoglu. Other historians who know the old script and the background believe that it was a premeditated campaign of extermination, and some of these historians are Turkish (Mete Tuncay and Selim Deringil, unless I am taking their names in vain). There is a Turkish historian, Taner Akcam, whose book, based on the war-crimes trials set up in the early period of the British occupation, is obviously scholarly and who accepts the genocide thesis (though he does stress that the process cannot be compared with what happened in Nazi Germany to the Jews). [...]

Turkey's Killing Fields
By GARY J. BASS
Published: December 17, 2006
A SHAMEFUL ACT

The Armenian Genocide and the Question of Turkish Responsibility.

By Taner Akcam.

Translated by Paul Bessemer.

483 pp. Metropolitan Books/

Henry Holt & Company. $30.

In July 1915, the American ambassador to the Ottoman Empire sent Washington a harrowing report about the Turks' ''systematic attempt to uproot peaceful Armenian populations.'' He described ''terrible tortures, wholesale expulsions and deportations from one end of the Empire to the other accompanied by frequent instances of rape, pillage and murder, turning into massacre.'' A month later, the ambassador, Henry Morgenthau -- the grandfather of the Manhattan district attorney, Robert M. Morgenthau -- warned of an ''attempt to exterminate a race.''

The Young Turk nationalist campaign against the empire's Armenian subjects was far too enormous to be ignored at the time. But decades of government-backed denial have created what amounts to a taboo in Turkey today. Instead of admitting genocide, Turkish officials contend the Armenians were a dangerous fifth column that colluded with Russia in World War I; many Armenians may have died, they say, but there was no organized slaughter. Turkish writers who challenge this line, like the novelists Orhan Pamuk and Elif Shafak, have risked prosecution for insulting Turkish identity. And on the diplomatic front, when Turkey should be polishing its credentials for eventual European Union membership, it is mired in historical fights; this May, for instance, it pulled out of a NATO military exercise to protest the Canadian prime minister's acknowledgment of the genocide.

''A Shameful Act: The Armenian Genocide and the Question of Turkish Responsibility,'' by Taner Akcam, is a Turkish blast against this national denial. A historian and former leftist activist now teaching at the Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies at the University of Minnesota, Akcam is often described as the first Turkish scholar to call the massacres genocide, and his impressive achievement here is to shine fresh light on exactly why and how the Ottoman Empire deported and slaughtered the Armenians. He directly challenges the doubters back home, basing his powerful book on Turkish sources in the old Ottoman script -- including the failed Ottoman war crimes tribunals held after World War I. Although he bolsters his case with material from the American, British and German archives, he writes that the remaining Ottoman records are enough to show that the ruling party's central committee ''did deliberately attempt to destroy the Armenian population.''

Akcam closely links the 1915 genocide with World War I. The Unionists, as the nationalist leaders were known, dreaded the partition of their empire by the European great powers. Not only did they suspect the Armenians of dangerous disloyalty, Akcam writes, but massacres of Muslims in Christian regions of the faltering empire before World War I had fostered a desire for vengeance.

While never excusing the atrocities, Akcam does argue that the Turkish leaders chose genocide in a mood of stark desperation. Staggered by a series of early military defeats, and by the Allied onslaught at Gallipoli, they fully expected their empire -- driven out of so much of its vast territories over the past two centuries -- to collapse. The Turkish heartland of Anatolia was threatened -- as was Constantinople.

The fiercest Ottoman enemy was Russia, which had nearly seized Constantinople in a bloody 1877-78 war and had a storied history of trying to foment uprisings against Ottoman rule. The Turkish nationalist line puts great weight on the internal menace of pro-Russian Armenians. But Akcam argues that there was little real danger from the Armenian uprisings, which were limited and directed mostly against the deportations. (British officials considered the Armenians militarily useless and thus refused to encourage the uprisings.) Akcam allows that the evacuation of Armenians may have been justified by military necessity in areas where the Armenian revolutionaries were strong -- but not throughout the empire.

The killings were a colossal undertaking. Paramilitaries and Interior Ministry gendarmes slaughtered Armenians en masse, while the Interior Ministry under Talat Pasha, who coordinated the campaign, arranged for the deportation of untold thousands more to the blazing Syrian deserts. Many of the deportees were massacred along the way, and those who survived were left without food, shelter or medicine, in what Akcam calls ''deliberate extermination.'' Akcam cites Ottoman Interior Ministry papers that chillingly call for keeping Armenians to less than 5 or 10 percent of the population. A postwar Turkish investigation found that some 800,000 Armenians perished.

After the war, Britain pressured the defeated Ottoman government into setting up its own war crimes tribunals. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk himself, the founder of the present Turkish republic, once said that the Unionist leaders ''should have been brought to account for the lives of millions of our Christian subjects ruthlessly driven en masse from their homes and massacred.'' Today, those who deny the genocide have to dismiss these trial records as mere victor's justice. Akcam uses the records as important evidence, though he frowns on Britain's imperialist ambitions and cultural biases.

This dense, measured and footnote-heavy book poses a stern challenge to modern Turkish polemicists, and if there is any response to be made, it can be done only with additional primary research in the archival records. In 1919, a British general hoped the Ottoman war crimes trials would ''dispel the fog of illusions prevailing throughout the country.'' Eighty-seven years later, the murk still lingers.


Gary J. Bass, the author of ''Stay the Hand of Vengeance: The Politics of War Crimes Tribunals,'' is writing a book on humanitarian intervention.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...751C1A9609C8B63

[Hosank]

yah, eh...hi prot, my name is hosank,...

i just wanted to inform you, that, armenian tashnaks, HELPED THE COMMITY OF UNION AND PROGRESS (young turks) to try and assasinate the SULTAN ABDUL HAMID (reason?..hmm massacring 200 000 armenians in the 1890s) 20 YEARS BEFORE 1915...so in your reasoning....the young turks decided to murder armenian preasts poets and teachers and intellectuals for the atempted murder of the leader they, themselves, deposed???

ok, look, the khojaly joke was funny, we all laughed at the videos, it's all good...but it's getting alittle old.

[Mordoth]

I want to fix one of the sentence of Hosank ;

Either Hincaks or Daschnak Zoutioun supported by the Russian army . Reinforcements , guns ,supplies are sent from the Russian front . Likewise , Armenian gangs have done what they have to do .

We Turks have a saying ;
" Giaur ( kaffir , infidel ) does what his infidelity makes him to do . "
And the giaours , non-Muslim folks , have done what their christian , yezidi blood ordered them to do .
It is something about interests.

[Hosank]

ok....see...i would love to comment, but i don't think i understood a word you said, nor would any cultured person.

[HayArsen]

Hey guys I am new here;

Why are you bothering to even argue with those idiots? They were produced in a stupid machine, and try to represent "proof" from biased, turkish nationalist websites. Everyone with a half a brain knows what happened in Ottoman Empire during WW1 was a genocide.

[irlandahay]

Hey guys I am new here;

Why are you bothering to even argue with those idiots? They were produced in a stupid machine, and try to represent "proof" from biased, turkish nationalist websites. Everyone with a half a brain knows what happened in Ottoman Empire during WW1 was a genocide.

welcome hyearsen!

glad to have you aboard!

yep, turks are quite the geniuses. but the point is not to convince them, its convincing anyone who happens to come across this forum.

and for the sake of our ancestors WE CANT LET THESE PIGS WIN!

long live azat angakh hyasdan

[Guest_Tigranes_*]

Norman Stone shouldn't even talk with Ottoman propaganda in his head. I have a question though, even though I'm Armenian I want to know more about the Khojaly Genocide or whatever it was. Do any of you have a second thought about denying Armenian involvement because it seems to me that its just biased opinion.

[HayArsen]

welcome hyearsen!

glad to have you aboard!

yep, turks are quite the geniuses. but the point is not to convince them, its convincing anyone who happens to come across this forum.

and for the sake of our ancestors WE CANT LET THESE PIGS WIN!

long live azat angakh hyasdan

I don't think that the way they think, the way the speak and the way they represent themselves can convince anyone to be on their side. Their "sources" have so much spelling and grammatical errors, and also historical inaccuracy that it degenerates them to a status of an ox.

[irlandahay]

Norman Stone shouldn't even talk with Ottoman propaganda in his head. I have a question though, even though I'm Armenian I want to know more about the Khojaly Genocide or whatever it was. Do any of you have a second thought about denying Armenian involvement because it seems to me that its just biased opinion.

khojaly was not genocide mate.

the definition of genocide is: the attmept in whole or in part of the highst point in government to exterminate a ratial, ethnic, or religious group.
that was very much the case for the armenians in 1915. but a couple angry armenians (the division was of men who survived the pogroms in sumgait and baku) who shot up some civilians, DOES NOT constitute of genocide. a tragedy yes, genocide...let the turks prove to us what order was sent by kotcharian to "exterminate the entire azeri population".

heres a good source.

About Khojali.

On February 26, the Azerbaijani Interior Ministry released their casualty figures concerning Xojali, 100 dead and 250 wounded (COVCAS Bulletin, March 5, 1992), including the OMON’s(Azeris gorillas), when Azerbaijani government reported to the media’s around the world that 1000 civilians have been exterminated. There has been no investigation; the Azerbaijani government refused any possible investigations. They also hide the fact that Xojali was used as bases for GRAD rocket launchers.

Armenians before attacking Xojali gave an ultimatum for their entrance in the city, after that dozens of GRAD’s were been fired from the city to Armenian civilian zone destroying a hospital.

Helsinki Watch in Baku on April 28, 1992 interviewed Azeri’s civilians, that recognised of having been told by Alif Gajiev (the head of the Azeris OMON in Khodjaly) : "They (the Armenians) made an ultimatum.. . that the Khodjaly people had better leave with a white flag. Alif Gajiev told us this on February 15. but this didn't frighten me or other people. We never believed they could occupy Khodjaly." (Helsinki Watch, p. 20) . They decided to not leave the city, when OMON peoples were hiding in Civilian areas. Another report from Helsinki Watch: "All Azerbaijanis interviewed who were in this group reported that the militia, still in uniform, and some still carrying their guns, were interspersed with the masses of civilians." (Helsinki Watch, p. 21) Another thing is that COVCAS Bulletin, April 9, 1992, on page 4 reported the ex-President of Azerbaijan, Ayaz Mutalibov speech on April 1992 that the massacre of Xojali was done by his political opponents to force his resignation.

What about the massacre of Armenians in Maragha village? Contrary to Xojali that was uses as military bases and attacks by militia’s, Maragha was just a simple villages, where CSI mission to Nagorno Karabakh in April before Xojali incident investigated, where there was 45 corps of women, children’s and elderly, and that there was at least 100 missing. Or Sumgait massacre were hundreds died, and Azerbaijani government refused to lets any international investigators in, openly saying that there should be no Armenians left in Azerbaijan. At this time there was no Armenian troops there, what about Kirovabad? On November 21, 1988 the 40,000 of the Armenians have been deported and uncounted numbers killed, when without Russian entrance to stop the conflict, all the Armenians from Azerbaijan were about to be deported and killed.

In November 18, 1988 an Azeri-Turk was sentenced to death in Moscow for his role in the Sumgait massacre. Just the next day a mass demonstration of Azeris in Baku took place, 500,000 peoples, screaming the slogan “Death to Armenians” and “Armenians out of Azerbaijan” When Armenians were leaving by thousands.

Even Azeris eyewitnesses were admitting this. Azaddin Gyulmamed report : "We went to see what was happening. We saw these guys in the streets. I don't know who they were drug addicts, maybe. They had sticks and clubs, and lists of Armenians and where they lived. They wanted to break down the doors of Armenian apartments and chase them out. The police didn't do anything. They just stood and watched. Same with the soldiers, who had weapons. We asked them to help. There were about a dozen soldiers and ten of us, and there were about twenty in the gang, but the soldiers wouldn't help. They said: 'You can do it yourself, Blackie. We're not getting involved." Recorded by the Reporter Robert Cullen.

All this continue when villages in the Shaumyan region were emptied of their Armenian population. Armenian villages of Kirov (Bertadzor district) and Dolanlar (Gadrut district), were repopulated by Azerbaijani’s, when Armenian homes were distributed to them.

[Hosank]

arsen

as i already explained countless times, im not trying to convice those turks. im simply trying to show them that their arguments are futile. if you have read any of my previous posts you would notice that i simply discredit all his arguments, sentence by sentence, till he is left with nothing more then a pool of lies, for everyone to see.

but that is just it...most people don't even have a half brain, that is why they may believe what a turk tells em.
that is also why we must educate them

tigranes. it would be preferable for you never to employ the term 'genocide' when referring to khojaly. you must understand that this 'genocide' is a myth that has flooded the internet less then a year ago (15 years after the event) by azeris, who cannot believe that they lost the war, and want to blame it on armenian criminality...

what happened there? irlandahays source is quite good. see...khojaly was a strategic town that held together the entire remnants of the azeri front. it was also an important military base, where GRAD rockets were being fired on armenian villages. the azeri troops were forced to retreat into the city, and armenian troops surrounded it in the mountains around the town. they opened a corridor in order to allow the civilians to flee. the azeri army forbate these people to leave and used them as human shields. they then provoked the armenians by firing apon them. at this point, the armenians who were pissed off after 3 years of seeing azeris torture and kill whole families and so on, simply began to poor artillery fire into the town. obviously it was a sensless act, because the armenians knew there would be civilian casualties, but did so anyways.

so obviously, what the armenians did was wrong, but it is IN NO WAY comparable to what the azeris have done during that war, and what the turks have done in 1915

finally, i know it may seem bias, but you must realise that armenians were the victims of 1915, and armenians would have been victims in 1991 if it were not for fedays.

look, i encourage you both to look at previous posts, and read my comments, and to try to continue in my path, as well as irlandahays and what ever armenian that is on this site.

[Mordoth]

Speaking with a wall is even better rather than speaking with a skinhead armenian

[HayArsen]

Speaking with a wall is even better rather than speaking with a skinhead armenian

Look at your map, and tell me who is the skinhead. If you had the chance you would kill every single Armenian just like your ancestors.

[irlandahay]

Look at your map, and tell me who is the skinhead. If you had the chance you would kill every single Armenian just like your ancestors.

ssssssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhh. dont put any iedas in his head! (monkey see monkey do)

[chase]

I sometimes wonder at mordoth's ancestors. Has she ever investigated where she came from...have any of the Turks investigated their past? Their ancestors may have been Armenian, Assyrian or Greek kids who were stolen from their parents and raised as brainwashed Muslims. Kinda like monkey see monkey do...lol

[irlandahay]

I sometimes wonder at mordoth's ancestors. Has she ever investigated where she came from...have any of the Turks investigated their past? Their ancestors may have been Armenian, Assyrian or Greek kids who were stolen from their parents and raised as brainwashed Muslims. Kinda like monkey see monkey do...lol

woa woa...your referred to mordoth as "she¸"

is this correct?

[Hosank]

what is the difference?
mongol-arab hybrid men and women look the same, the only difference is that turkish women hide it under burkas

[Mordoth]

I sometimes wonder at mordoth's ancestors. Has she ever investigated where she came from...have any of the Turks investigated their past? Their ancestors may have been Armenian, Assyrian or Greek kids who were stolen from their parents and raised as brainwashed Muslims. Kinda like monkey see monkey do...lol

It should be you to investigate the Nation of your predecessors .
As we know , the RAPEs have changed the genetic map of Europe , lol .

You call yourself an Amerigan , and it is okay for me .
I know who i am , do not worry .

50 % Turk , 50 % Slavic . That is it . And I AM A TURK . ( A crooked eyed one )

I am not a female .
An australian rascist politician , Lady Hanson ; is even NOT pure .
35 % Italian , 55 % Irish , 10 % Turk LoL ; her family is a little bit complicated .
May be , you could go to a medical center and search for what you were .
I ' m sure , you have Turkish genes inside your CELLs =)

BTW Hosank ;
Turks do not wear BURKA . IT is basically used in Afganistan , Middle East & Far East

[Hosank]

you sure about that mordy?

what, turkish women are modern and secular?

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http...ficial%26sa%3DN

no, not my genes, my genese are pure armenian, my entire family is blond and white skinned, and from all the rape you commited it would not be surprising that at least some armenians, have at least one turkish ancestor, but this would be rare, anyways, what counts is that they call themselves armenian...

meanwhile, we can see that at least over a million turks are actually armenian, and many many more have armenian blood in them, thank you mordoth, for trying to destroy my race...

[Mordoth]

you sure about that mordy?

what, turkish women are modern and secular?

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http...ficial%26sa%3DN

no, not my genes, my genese are pure armenian, my entire family is blond and white skinned, and from all the rape you commited it would not be surprising that at least some armenians, have at least one turkish ancestor, but this would be rare, anyways, what counts is that they call themselves armenian...

meanwhile, we can see that at least over a million turks are actually armenian, and many many more have armenian blood in them, thank you mordoth, for trying to destroy my race...

Yes , Thank God many of them are Secular and Modern .
We see such portraits when a radicalist right-wing party is governing my lands , for instance JDP .

IT is sanliurfa right ? Hmm , it is always HOT in there and the settler villagers are using headscarfs , that 's why .
Your entire family is blond and white skinned ? Hmm, you'd better search for what you are .

Over 1 Million Turk is originally Armenian, huh ? Hmm, intresting , as if you 've a certain obscure about that . LoL

I apologize for ;
- Relocating your predecessors humanicly
- Treating them as Humans for centuries despite the presence of a unforgivable treachery
- Permitting and sharing our Territories with them
- Evaluating them as Loyal Nation
- Not encountering their ( Armenians' ) betrayal
- Trying to teach Armenians the lesson of Humanities

[irlandahay]

Yes , Thank God many of them are Secular and Modern .
We see such portraits when a radicalist right-wing party is governing my lands , for instance JDP .

IT is sanliurfa right ? Hmm , it is always HOT in there and the settler villagers are using headscarfs , that 's why .
Your entire family is blond and white skinned ? Hmm, you'd better search for what you are .

Over 1 Million Turk is originally Armenian, huh ? Hmm, intresting , as if you 've a certain obscure about that . LoL

I apologize for ;
- Relocating your predecessors humanicly
- Treating them as Humans for centuries despite the presence of a unforgivable treachery
- Permitting and sharing our Territories with them
- Evaluating them as Loyal Nation
- Not encountering their ( Armenians' ) betrayal
- Trying to teach Armenians the lesson of Humanities

radicalist right-wing? if im not mistaken...your talking about ALL of turkey right?

no, those arnt headscarves, those are clearly hijabs.

entire family, white skinned, blonde hair. yep, but because we are also half irish. and no, armenians dont have ANY turkish in them. we were here first, not the other way around.

I apologize for:
-not standing up to your "humanic deportations" earlyer
-being slaughtered without mercy, and not even raising our voice
-not kicking you out of our holy lands
-making the sorry mistake of thinking that turks had evolved in the past 1000 years
-not realising there was a horrible plan behind these "friendly deportations"

last but not least, turks have NOTHING to teach the armenians. the entire world knows of your butchering tactics. your the scum of the earth, quite frankly, your people disgust me, i pity you for being part of such a fowl nation!

[Hosank]

- relocating?...you mean butchering
-treating them like dogs for centuries, despite the fact that they are in their land
-your holy lands? our homeland
-sharing YOUR territories with us? yess.....obviously 1915 is a good example of a turk 'sharing' with the armenian who's land it is..
-calling them traitors because they are christian and not- turkish..
-butchering us and then accusing us of genocide
-the only lesson we learned is that a turk is not a human, on the contrary..

yes, turkish rightwing elements are controling my land...

what do i have to check? my genes? my genes are untouched by your inferior scum, making them pure armenian.

the world knows what? not what you know obviously...lol

[davit]

I sometimes wonder at mordoth's ancestors. Has she ever investigated where she came from...have any of the Turks investigated their past? Their ancestors may have been Armenian, Assyrian or Greek kids who were stolen from their parents and raised as brainwashed Muslims. Kinda like monkey see monkey do...lol

NO WAY MORDOTH IS A WOMEN OR A LADY?

I THOUGHT YOU WERE A MALE

DAIM YOU TURKS SURE GOT SOME PRETTY NAMES FOR LADYS.LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

[Hosank]

bah go figure

[davit]

bah go figure

what?

[prot9999]

No only Normon Stone said this, also Historian Andrew Mango, Prof. Justin McCarty, Historian Erich Feigl, Historian Stanford Shaw and more historian. Politics just used this lie for armenians votes. Politics not know Turkish or armenians history, not knowing Ottoman history. Politics can't show any evidence or proofs. Also armenians never show any "genocide" evidences. Because Ottoman never make genocide, but armenians did genocided Anatolian Turks and Azeri peoples in Khoajali.

If Ottoman was make so called genocide, why armenians did not going to Lahey trials like Bosnia? Why still waiting? Because armenians knowing well: "no genocide all is lie. "

Actually Yerevan city are Azeri Turks land and Azerbaijan + Turkey will be get back these lands from armenians. Nobody stopped this.

Taner Akcam not historian or anything. He not know Ottoman language and he not know Turkish history. He are just terorist and armenians buying him soul.

Armenian will never evidence anything and Turkey will be show all armenian lies to world. Yours can sure this. Turkey will never opening borders and will never connected again armenian. Because Turkish peoples now hated diaspora and armenia armenians. We are not needed armenian and will be always do this.

Regards,

[Hosank]

prot my boy...
Macarthy is not a credible source on this forum.

you are right, politicians do not know history, because till now, some politicians, including americans, still believe turkish lies in order to keep good relations with a potential market country.

Actually Yerevan city are Azeri Turks land and Azerbaijan + Turkey will be get back these lands from armenians. Nobody stopped this.

lol, you claim that turks are nice people and so on, and that you do not genocide anyone, yet you place your expantionist views right here...
btw, erevan is not azeri or turkish..most of azerbaijan, and turkey should be armenian...

lahey trials? that has nothing to do with the armenian genocide...

Taner Akcam not historian or anything. He not know Ottoman language and he not know Turkish history. He are just terorist and armenians buying him soul.

oh? he is not a historian? he is more then mcarthy. and he is a turk..he knows his history well enough in my opinion.. he is a terrorist? why? because he does not agree with your beloved attaturk?


never open borders? ok...your loss...

Because Turkish peoples now hated diaspora and armenia armenians.

ahh..but didn't you say that turkish people love armenians?

[intergalacticman]

did anyone notice the huge owning post that the moderator posted, i noted no one tried to deny that

[Hosank]

yep

[davit]

did anyone notice the huge owning post that the moderator posted, i noted no one tried to deny that

why did he do that ?

[fedayi]

Historians are denied, what is for this? Peoples should beleive historians or cheaters?
Original documents are German language, i'm putting here English translate. Turkish language documents based from National archives. Here your "original documents"? We still dont see and "original armenian documents"

We've been through this many times, prot... TURKISH NATIONAL ARCHIVES DO NOT GIVE US ANY REAL PROOF...THEY BELONG TO THE ONLY NATION THAT ACTUALLY WANTS TO DENY THE GENOCIDE...SO HOW CAN YOU EXPECT IT TO SAY ANYTHING ELSE?

Also, since you are putting the "English translate"...your English is so bad that your letter serves no purpose except to show how big of a loser you are. If you can't even explain your letter, how can we believe that the translation is correct? You probably made hundreds of translation errors in the first three letters.

P.S. "Original documents are German language, i'm putting here English translate" should actually be written, "The original documents are in German, what I've put hereis the English translation"

[fedayi]

btw, erevan is not azeri or turkish..most of azerbaijan, and turkey should be armenian...

Correction - ALL of Azerbaijan should be Armenian...As we all know, Azerbaijan was a piece of Armenia that was given to the Turks by Russia during the breakup of the Soviet Union...the Azeris aren't even a race...

[fedayi]

prot my boy...
Macarthy is not a credible source on this forum.

you are right, politicians do not know history, because till now, some politicians, including americans, still believe turkish lies in order to keep good relations with a potential market country.
lol, you claim that turks are nice people and so on, and that you do not genocide anyone, yet you place your expantionist views right here...
btw, erevan is not azeri or turkish..most of azerbaijan, and turkey should be armenian...

lahey trials? that has nothing to do with the armenian genocide...
oh? he is not a historian? he is more then mcarthy. and he is a turk..he knows his history well enough in my opinion.. he is a terrorist? why? because he does not agree with your beloved attaturk?
never open borders? ok...your loss...
ahh..but didn't you say that turkish people love armenians?

[Hosank]

well part of it was actually albania which are relatives to the armenians, and the georgians...

[davit]

what happen to "erevan" ???? i mean not the city the guy who was writing here

[Defensor Ursa]

No only Normon Stone said this, also Historian Andrew Mango, Prof. Justin McCarty, Historian Erich Feigl, Historian Stanford Shaw and more historian.

1. Andrew Mango IS NOT a historian, in any way. He's a journalist.
2. McCarthy & Shaw both are financed by the Turkish government via Princeton.
3 Erich Feigl IS NOT a historian. He's a documentary film producer.
4. Norman Stone TEACHES at Bilkent University, Ankara. So if he values his job, what is he going to say?

Taner Akcam not historian or anything. He not know Ottoman language and he not know Turkish history. He are just terorist and armenians buying him soul.

If Taner Akcam is a terrorist why didn't the Turkish government arrest him when he returned for Hrant Dink's funeral??


Regards

[Hosank]

because instead they told the canadian government that he was one, which in turn had him taken in custody when he arrived in montreal this year, where he was released when a minister came to bail him out

[davit]

We Turks have a saying ;
" Giaur ( kaffir , infidel ) does what his infidelity makes him to do . "

thats not a saying thats the truth