Turkey: 17th Century Church Smashed Into Ruins Options

[chase]

» 11/17/2007 12:57
TURKEY


Halki’s Chapel of the Transfiguration left in ruins

Forest guards began demolition work on the chapel without warning, Only the immediate protest of the prior of Haliki and Metropolitan Meliton avoided its total destruction. A Church in Kadikoy, ancient Calcedonia is also targeted by vandals.

Istanbul (AsiaNews) –A XVII century chapel dedicated to Our Lord’s Transfiguration, which lies in front of the Haliki School of Theology, was almost completely destroyed yesterday by Forest Guards. The Church had been recently restored with the permission of local authorities. Demolisher's had begun tearing down the building without any prior warning, which is called for in such cases.

Only at the last minute was the total destruction of the chapel avoided: following protests by the prior of Haliki School and Metropolitan Meliton, director of the Ecumenical Patriarchates office for legal affairs, the prefect of the Prince Islands stopped the Forest Guards. The building however was seriously damaged.

The Prior of Halki immediately brought to the attention of the Turkish authorities that these kinds of episodes will provoke international disapproval, including that of the European Union. The Authorities response was stark: “Don’t dare to threaten us!”.

Shortly afterwards an “unknown” group smashed the windows of Holy Trinity Church in Kadikoy, ancient Calcedonia.

Diplomatic and journalistic circles mummer that cases such as these are on the increase and are not casual either: they are part of a strategy adopted by powers in Turkey who are against the nations process of integration in the European Union and are testing the Governments will to protect religious minorities.(NT)
http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&...0827&size=A


Nothing changes....the hate and intolerance for the 'other' continues.

[arrow]

Last year they were doing some road construction and started to dig the area and suddenly the screw thingy that they used ( as big as the oil platform screws ) fell right onto the metro rails.. And it was 15 seconds after the train passed.

That happened in Istanbul, the construction company got sued. There are things happening without darker deeds behind all chase. You need to start taking your gloves off and relax a little.

[KHAZARI]

MR CHASE YOU ARE HYENA, YOU ALWAYS ATTACK ONLY TURKIYE THE EGYPTIAN VERY HUMANITARIAN AH? THE SITUATION OF THE CHRISTIAN IN TURKIYE BETTER THAN REST THE MIDDLE EAST.AND THE JEWISH LIVE IN TURKIYE VERY GOOD AND ALWAYS TALK ONLY GOOD ABOUT THE TURKISH PEOPLE.SHUT UP ! AND IF YOU SO HUMANITARIAN SO GIVE US REPORT ABOUT THE CHRISTIAN IN EGYPT JORDEN PALESTINAN ,IRAQ IRAN.....

[Kurd-BOSS]

MR CHASE YOU ARE HYENA, YOU ALWAYS ATTACK ONLY TURKIYE THE EGYPTIAN VERY HUMANITARIAN AH? THE SITUATION OF THE CHRISTIAN IN TURKIYE BETTER THAN REST THE MIDDLE EAST.AND THE JEWISH LIVE IN TURKIYE VERY GOOD AND ALWAYS TALK ONLY GOOD ABOUT THE TURKISH PEOPLE.SHUT UP ! AND IF YOU SO HUMANITARIAN SO GIVE US REPORT ABOUT THE CHRISTIAN IN EGYPT JORDEN PALESTINAN ,IRAQ IRAN.....

The Christians in Anatolia were hanged/executed by the thousands in the aftermath of the Armenian Genocide.

Iraqi Christians seek safe haven in Kurdish region

According to the Chaldean bishop of Arbil and Amadiyah, Monsignor Rabban al-Qas, “more than 70,000 Christians have fled to Iraqi Kurdistan,” settling in villages abandoned or destroyed in the late 1980s, during attacks on Kurds by the regime of the late dictator Saddam Hussein.

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle...oniraq&col=

[arrow]

MR CHASE YOU ARE HYENA, YOU ALWAYS ATTACK ONLY TURKIYE THE EGYPTIAN VERY HUMANITARIAN AH? THE SITUATION OF THE CHRISTIAN IN TURKIYE BETTER THAN REST THE MIDDLE EAST.AND THE JEWISH LIVE IN TURKIYE VERY GOOD AND ALWAYS TALK ONLY GOOD ABOUT THE TURKISH PEOPLE.SHUT UP ! AND IF YOU SO HUMANITARIAN SO GIVE US REPORT ABOUT THE CHRISTIAN IN EGYPT JORDEN PALESTINAN ,IRAQ IRAN.....

Hey Khazari, you should have seen Chase's posts after I posted the child abuse news of preachers . He is just a troll , let him be

[chase]

QUOTE(KHAZARI @ 11/24/07 04:14 AM) *
MR CHASE YOU ARE HYENA, YOU ALWAYS ATTACK ONLY TURKIYE THE EGYPTIAN VERY HUMANITARIAN AH? THE SITUATION OF THE CHRISTIAN IN TURKIYE BETTER THAN REST THE MIDDLE EAST.AND THE JEWISH LIVE IN TURKIYE VERY GOOD AND ALWAYS TALK ONLY GOOD ABOUT THE TURKISH PEOPLE.SHUT UP ! AND IF YOU SO HUMANITARIAN SO GIVE US REPORT ABOUT THE CHRISTIAN IN EGYPT JORDEN PALESTINAN ,IRAQ IRAN..... icon_mrgreen.gif


The Christians in Anatolia were hanged/executed by the thousands in the aftermath of the Armenian Genocide.


QUOTE
Iraqi Christians seek safe haven in Kurdish region

According to the Chaldean bishop of Arbil and Amadiyah, Monsignor Rabban al-Qas, “more than 70,000 Christians have fled to Iraqi Kurdistan,” settling in villages abandoned or destroyed in the late 1980s, during attacks on Kurds by the regime of the late dictator Saddam Hussein.


http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle...oniraq&col=

The second time, in recent times, I actually agree with you.

[chase]

Hey Khazari, you should have seen Chase's posts after I posted the child abuse news of preachers . He is just a troll , let him be

[arrow]

VATICAN CITY — Pope Benedict XVI has called on Roman Catholics to pray “in perpetuity” to cleanse the Church of clergy who have sexually abused minors

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,320511,00.html

Yea he prays for the abused, but pays for their freedom and people respect him soo much , use his picture as their signature...

[chase]

VATICAN CITY — Pope Benedict XVI has called on Roman Catholics to pray “in perpetuity” to cleanse the Church of clergy who have sexually abused minors

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,320511,00.html

Yea he prays for the abused, but pays for their freedom and people respect him soo much , use his picture as their signature...

"Obviously one must always keep in mind that only a minimal part of the clergy has been involved in grave situations," Hummes said. "Not even 1 percent is involved with problems of moral and sexual conduct." http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,320511,00.html

That atrocity was an offense to all of us and condemned internationally for months. The guilty were tried and convicted. Are you saying they shouldn't have had representation in court?




Are the mullahs and clerics from the madrass's being brought to the court of public opinion for condemnation and a court of law for prosecution or do they continue with their abuses unchallenged?

[Hosank]

. There are things happening without darker deeds behind all chase. You need to start taking your gloves off and relax a little.

so, you are saying that just like the metro incident, they accidentally began destroying a landmark? lool

THE SITUATION OF THE CHRISTIAN IN TURKIYE BETTER THAN REST THE MIDDLE EAST

tell that to my grandfather.
also..which christians? how many are left? from an anatolia that was entirely christian.
and now compare the conditions of those who are left to the muslims in europe...

VATICAN CITY — Pope Benedict XVI has called on Roman Catholics to pray “in perpetuity” to cleanse the Church of clergy who have sexually abused minors

at least our church does something to fix our problem, what progress has your religion made?

[arrow]

That atrocity was an offense to all of us and condemned internationally for months. The guilty were tried and convicted. Are you saying they shouldn't have had representation in court?


Are the mullahs and clerics from the madrass's being brought to the court of public opinion for condemnation and a court of law for prosecution or do they continue with their abuses unchallenged?

I am not in Iran, and I don't have a mullahs picture as my signature. But my point is, the 3rd world nations / states are constantly blamed by you " civilised" people of all things yet you are no better than them. I dispise you both and equally. Hypocracy is your way of life.

[arrow]

so, you are saying that just like the metro incident, they accidentally began destroying a landmark? lool
tell that to my grandfather.
also..which christians? how many are left? from an anatolia that was entirely christian.
and now compare the conditions of those who are left to the muslims in europe...
at least our church does something to fix our problem, what progress has your religion made?

Hosank, The christians in Turkiye are better than the muslims in England or Germany.

Your church, as I stated , is an insult to Jesus and Christianity. You don't need anyone to understand Jesus's message nor God needs no one to be His/ Her voice on earth..

And I want to puke everytime I see someone lecturing about a religion, telling how people should follw the teachings of their religion, be it a muslim, christian or a jew.

BTW, I just realised that the picture in chase's first post, the one about the curch. The curch look pretty well maintained.

[Hosank]

1. that is the old picture

2. i am sure you have many times over watched the news and seen large protests by UK or european muslims. i am sure you also know damn well that if armenians or greeks staged such protests, they would be murdered in the streets. do you think it's an exageration?...quite frankly not, since i remember that even after the genocide, armenians or greeks didn't even need to protest to be massacred in streets. sufice to start a rumour that the house of ataturk was being demolished to trigger days of porgoms against armenians and greeks, destroying their remaining churches, killing or castrating their priests and so on...i am sure you know what i am talking about..it wasn t that long ago

Your church, as I stated , is an insult to Jesus and Christianity.

arrow, comming from a heathen such as yourself, i don't think that you can comment about my church.

And I want to puke everytime I see someone lecturing about a religion,

you mean like you did only 2 lines ago?

[arrow]

1. that is the old picture

2. i am sure you have many times over watched the news and seen large protests by UK or european muslims. i am sure you also know damn well that if armenians or greeks staged such protests, they would be murdered in the streets. do you think it's an exageration?...quite frankly not, since i remember that even after the genocide, armenians or greeks didn't even need to protest to be massacred in streets. sufice to start a rumour that the house of ataturk was being demolished to trigger days of porgoms against armenians and greeks, destroying their remaining churches, killing or castrating their priests and so on...i am sure you know what i am talking about..it wasn t that long ago
arrow, comming from a heathen such as yourself, i don't think that you can comment about my church.
you mean like you did only 2 lines ago?

http://213.243.28.21/haber.php?haberno=210619

That article has a picture of Turks ( greek + ermeni+ kurd+ turk) protesting after the murder of Dink. They were shouting " we are all ermeni, we are all hrant" ... none of them were murdered as you put it.. You need to realise that we are living in 2000's not in Ottoman times....

Hosank, you blamed me for not understanding your posts more than I could count by now. I said more than a few times " I do not accuse any religion for anything, I do accuse their followers"..

I made comments about your church and mullahs and other religion leechers, not your religion..

[arrow]

I know that curch, it is in Altıyol and there is a cinema right across it and next to it there is Mc DOnalds..

THe curch is no where near a forest and it is still in use.. I called my friend just now and asked if he heard anything about the this news, and he laughed at me... He lives in the same street and a Jew.

Then I decided to make a search about this news chase posted and see where I got..


www.lobbyforcyprus.org/press/press2007/anew_171107_halki-chapel-ruins.htm - 5k -

www.vaticans.org/.../824-Halkis-Chapel-of-the-Transfiguration-almost-destroyed-by-forest-guards.html - 23k -

clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2007/11/halkis-chapel-of-transfiguration-left.html - 167k -



No respectable news network has anything about it, I wonder why. This topic is a lie and a propaganda.

[chase]

Hosank, The christians in Turkiye are better than the muslims in England or Germany.

Your church, as I stated , is an insult to Jesus and Christianity. You don't need anyone to understand Jesus's message nor God needs no one to be His/ Her voice on earth..

And I want to puke everytime I see someone lecturing about a religion, telling how people should follw the teachings of their religion, be it a muslim, christian or a jew.

BTW, I just realised that the picture in chase's first post, the one about the curch. The curch look pretty well maintained.

arrow: And about Kuran, the first one written on the bones and skin of animals is in Vatican. The first copies ( 4 ) are still around, they were written when Muhammed was alive. Actually he made sure that the book was copied perfectly before he died, as Torah Kuran was never changed, not a word. Unlike Jesus Christ Muhammed's life was kind enough so he could publish the book.
http://www.middleeastinfo.org/forum/index....14835&st=50

Lies = Taqiyya:

The word "al-Taqiyya" literally means:

"Concealing or disguising one's beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies at a
time of eminent danger, whether now or later in time, to save oneself from physical and/or mental injury." A one-word translation would be "Dissimulation."

[...]

First, the CONCEALMENT of one's beliefs does NOT necessitate an ABANDONMENT of these beliefs. The distinction between "concealment" and "abandonment" MUST be noted here.

[..]
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/1.html
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/2.html
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/3.html


Who brought up the Catholic Church calling us an insult to Jesus Christ? Who was lecturing you about a religion and telling you to join one? ? Hmmm, that's right - you did!!! Why one might ask?

[chase]

I know that curch, it is in Altıyol and there is a cinema right across it and next to it there is Mc DOnalds..

THe curch is no where near a forest and it is still in use.. I called my friend just now and asked if he heard anything about the this news, and he laughed at me... He lives in the same street and a Jew.

Then I decided to make a search about this news chase posted and see where I got..
www.lobbyforcyprus.org/press/press2007/anew_171107_halki-chapel-ruins.htm - 5k -

www.vaticans.org/.../824-Halkis-Chapel-of-the-Transfiguration-almost-destroyed-by-forest-guards.html - 23k -

clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2007/11/halkis-chapel-of-transfiguration-left.html - 167k -
No respectable news network has anything about it, I wonder why. This topic is a lie and a propaganda.

The thread starter has the main link - see above. You have a habit of trying to smear the messenger don't you?

You did the same on this thread - here and it was the Turkish Daily News:

“Child Pornography, Abuse, And Prostitution In Turkey, ………….When will the state do something about it?”
17-month old baby girl had been raped by three men, in the presence of her mother, two months ago.
The 84-page report found that forcing children into prostitution was the main form of sexual exploitation of children. The report found that the most widely abused group of children was girls between 12 and 18 years old, but that there was also a substantial number of boys who were victims of sexual abuse.
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=61792
http://www.middleeastinfo.org/forum/index....showtopic=14096


Are we just supposed to believe you and your "Jew" neighbor? lol


Now back to the topic - has Turkey honored their Treaty yet toward the Christian Halki Theological School? Or does it remain shut on the orders of the Turkey government? You say Christians are better in Turkey? Now why would you say that, eh? I'll say it in one word - OPPRESSION!!!


The Halki Theological School was closed by an action of the Turkish government in 1971, and since that time, has been subject to actions by government agencies that seek to curb its activities. The building is currently used for conferences, most notably, the International Environmental Symposium sponsored annually by His All Holiness and various world renowned dignitaries. The School was founded in the nineteenth century on the grounds of the Patriarchal Monastery of the Holy Trinity that has occupied the site for over 1,000 years.

Its closure constitutes a breach of Article 40 of the Lausanne Treaty and Article 24 of the Turkish Constitution which both guarantee religious freedom and education. Their provisions are also embodied in Article 9 of the European Convention of Human Rights and therefore the closure of the Halki Seminary can only be viewed as an illegal abuse of human rights and a violation of democracy and international law.
http://www.greece.org/themis/halki2/index.html

[arrow]

Who brought up the Catholic Church calling us an insult to Jesus Christ? Who was lecturing you about a religion and telling you to join one? ? Hmmm, that's right - you did!!! Why one might ask?

I stated my ideas about religions and religious groups, which you sem to have trouble understanding that are 2 different things.


Your church, the catholic church is an insult to Jesus , IMO. and you made it pretty clear that in your opinion islam is an insult to humanity in general, or some like that. Your liar argument is getting old lady, find a better one..

Ps: I don't speak arabic.

[arrow]

blah blah blah ....
http://www.greece.org/themis/halki2/index.html

Nice link again little lady liar. Tell us, are you making all these up or are the websites you visit are all propaganda web sites..

Go find us some link from a respectable news source, chap chap.

[chase]

Nice link again little lady liar. Tell us, are you making all these up or are the websites you visit are all propaganda web sites..

Go find us some link from a respectable news source, chap chap.

“Child Pornography, Abuse, And Prostitution In Turkey, ………….When will the state do something about it?”
17-month old baby girl had been raped by three men, in the presence of her mother, two months ago.
The 84-page report found that forcing children into prostitution was the main form of sexual exploitation of children. The report found that the most widely abused group of children was girls between 12 and 18 years old, but that there was also a substantial number of boys who were victims of sexual abuse.
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=61792
http://www.middleeastinfo.org/forum/index....showtopic=14096

You did the same on the thread depicted above and it was reported in the Turkish Daily News so I doubt any medium would suffice except perhaps your neighbor again? heh

[arrow]

blah blah and more blah...

You did the same on the thread depicted above and it was reported in the Turkish Daily News so I doubt any medium would suffice except perhaps your neighbor again? heh

The topic is started by you, it is about a church being almost destroyed by forest workers.. Stick to your own topic for a change. But since you realised that your lie is out of the closet you try to evaise the topic you yourseşf started.. Get a life liar...


PS: turkish daily news is a news network unlike lobbyforcyprus, vaticans.org etc... Go give us a link from a NEWS NETWORK or shut up. You are looking lamer everytime you try to sweep past your lies.

[Hosank]

That article has a picture of Turks ( greek + ermeni+ kurd+ turk) protesting after the murder of Dink

i am sure you are aware that the great majority of people protesting were leftwinger turks, not greeks or armenians. i remember hearing that there were up to 100 000 protesters in thos things, however, there arn't even 100 000 greeks and armenians together. also, when you have the eyes of the world watching you..

oh...and i do remember that these people were infact attacked, in stadiums and so on, by people yelling we are all turks, and praising the one who murdered him.

you are absolutely right, we are not in ottoman times, so why don't you people begin to live like we are in the 21st century, as you put it.

no, all you did, was downplay the role of child molestation in your religion, and proceded to bash ours (people, and religion) like a mule.

[arrow]

i am sure you are aware that the great majority of people protesting were leftwinger turks, not greeks or armenians. i remember hearing that there were up to 100 000 protesters in thos things, however, there arn't even 100 000 greeks and armenians together. also, when you have the eyes of the world watching you..

oh...and i do remember that these people were infact attacked, in stadiums and so on, by people yelling we are all turks, and praising the one who murdered him.

you are absolutely right, we are not in ottoman times, so why don't you people begin to live like we are in the 21st century, as you put it.

no, all you did, was downplay the role of child molestation in your religion, and proceded to bash ours (people, and religion) like a mule.

You said exactly " i am sure you also know damn well that if armenians or greeks staged such protests, they would be murdered in the streets."... And in return I posted a picture now you tell us that the number of ermeni and greek are not that good enough for you and the rest are left winger turks.. So what ? They are all turkish citizens doing exactly what you posted they dare not do. Are they murdered ??

For once, just for once accept your mistake. And the "attack " in the stadium. I don't know ermenistan but we don't have time travel and teleportation in here. The protstors were in Istanbul and the stadşum was in Trabzon. 2 Hrs travel by plane I guess they used cruise missiles ...

Hosank, it is time you drop it.

[Hosank]

lol arrow..you are stepping over the answer to your own question, yet still you cannot see it. you said it yourself THEY ARE TURKS...turks marching. i was talking about armenians. armenians alone would not go very far, and you know this to be true, you keep debating it in order to keep lying to yourself.

what does distance matter in this case? you agree that this movement was suppressed. the only time where people rose in defence of armenians, many more rose against it. doesn't matter weather it is in istambul or bloody hong kong...

[arrow]

what does distance matter in this case? you agree that this movement was suppressed. the only time where people rose in defence of armenians, many more rose against it. doesn't matter weather it is in istambul or bloody hong kong...

The thing is it matters a lot. You can not attack a person if there are thousands of kilometers distance between each other. Some protested about a thing and others protested the way the others protested it.

And when did I agree that anything was supressed ? And why should anyone rose in defence of ermeni ? There is no need to defend anyone. They were protesting a murder.

Ps: And who attacked them? did any of the protestors murdered as you posted a few posts back?

[Hosank]

. You can not attack a person if there are thousands of kilometers distance between each other.

you are thinking only of the physical, unfortunately, people are not the only victims on an individual level, but you can attack ideals, movements, and so on..and that, you can do from anywhere in the world.

They were protesting a murder.

so according to you, in turkey, every time mahmood and moustafa are murdered for what ever reason hundreds of thousands protest? as usual you are trying to minimise the significance of negative events in your country.

they were protesting because the murder of hrant dink brought to light many of the uneases that have built up over the years since the creation of the turkish myth by ataturk (which i have spoken about earlier, but you chose to ignore it..as usual).

[arrow]

you are thinking only of the physical, unfortunately, people are not the only victims on an individual level, but you can attack ideals, movements, and so on..and that, you can do from anywhere in the world.
so according to you, in turkey, every time mahmood and moustafa are murdered for what ever reason hundreds of thousands protest? as usual you are trying to minimise the significance of negative events in your country.

they were protesting because the murder of hrant dink brought to light many of the uneases that have built up over the years since the creation of the turkish myth by ataturk (which i have spoken about earlier, but you chose to ignore it..as usual).

You are a funny guy. You told us that if anyone dared to protest they would be murdered or tortured. I porved you are wrong and biased. Then you told us that they were actually attacked, from a thousand kilometer distant stadium by getting protested..

Get that gas out of your body, it must be giving you aches...

He is not the last one to die in your stupid debate. He was strongly against the ways of diaspora. He always told people that the ongoing debate is harming Ermeni and Turks together. And diaspora constantly had to make declerations against him. And when he was finnaly killed by another right winged freak / organisation he became the tool of what he despised most....


You either have no respect for his ideas or you have no idea about his ideas.

As far as I am concerned this argument of chase about a church getting close to destruction is a lie and no need to continue the debate. And I will not be part of your Hrant Dink argument neither becouse it is obvious you have no idea what he tried to do while he was alive..

[chase]

You are a funny guy. You told us that if anyone dared to protest they would be murdered or tortured. I porved you are wrong and biased. Then you told us that they were actually attacked, from a thousand kilometer distant stadium by getting protested..

Get that gas out of your body, it must be giving you aches...

He is not the last one to die in your stupid debate. He was strongly against the ways of diaspora. He always told people that the ongoing debate is harming Ermeni and Turks together. And diaspora constantly had to make declerations against him. And when he was finnaly killed by another right winged freak / organisation he became the tool of what he despised most....
You either have no respect for his ideas or you have no idea about his ideas.

As far as I am concerned this argument of chase about a church getting close to destruction is a lie and no need to continue the debate. And I will not be part of your Hrant Dink argument neither becouse it is obvious you have no idea what he tried to do while he was alive..

Island dispute highlights unease of Turkey's religious minorities

By C. ONUR ANT - Associated Press Writer
© AP
2008-01-25 12:00:37 -

ISTANBUL, Turkey (AP) - The Orthodox church says it's a historic monastery, and the Turkish government describes it as old pig farm. A dispute over a dilapidated structure highlights tension over Turkey's religious minorities, a key concern as the European Union considers membership for the Muslim-majority nation.

In November, forest ministry officials knocked down part of a building that the church said was a monastery on Heybeliada, an island in the Sea of Marmara off Istanbul. They said renovation there was illegal because it was taking place on government property.

Now the ruins are the subject of a legal battle between the government and the Istanbul-based Orthodox Patriarchate, which has been hosting Greek Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis during his trip to Turkey this week, the first by a Greek premier in almost five decades.

Greece has been an advocate of the Greek Orthodox minority in Turkey, though Greek opposition parties have blamed the government for not doing enough to support the dwindling community.

The row over the building underlines the unease of Turkey's religious minorities. Many Turks view the demands of those minorities with suspicion, fearing they could undermine national unity in an echo of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire at the beginning of the 20th century.

Rights groups claim ultranationalists, often with the tacit approval of state officials, bully anyone pushing for minority rights into silence through court actions, threats and even violence. Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said his government will not tolerate ethnic nationalism or discrimination.

The dispute in the Sea of Marmara is the latest episode of a problematic past between the Patriarchate and the Turkish state. The church has long called for the reopening of its theology school on Heybeliada, which was shut down in 1985 after the last students graduated.

The official argument for the seminary's closure is that a religious institution without government oversight is not compatible with secular institutions of Turkey, a country where all Muslim clerics are trained and paid by the government, and are handed scripts of Friday sermons by a state agency.

Patriarch Bartholomew says Ankara refuses to open the seminary because it aims to prevent the church from raising new leaders. The church's leader has to be Turkish, which makes it difficult for the community of several thousand to produce any candidates.

The Greek premier, Karamanlis, said Wednesday in Ankara that the opening of the school was something Turkey should «deal with sincerely» as it seeks EU membership.

Bartholomew said he used to pray once a year at the building that was knocked down by government officials. Dositheos Anagnostopoulos, a spokesman for the Patriarchate, said the plot is where the historic Makarios Monastery once stood.

«Earlier, our properties were taken away without any court ruling,» Anagnostopoulos said. «But this is the first time a church is being demolished.


A local official in Heybeliada, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to the media, said the Orthodox church was unfairly trying to erect a new house of worship in place of an old, deserted one. He said the building, now a pile of roof tiles and stones filling a narrow hall, was long left on its own with no religious ceremonies taking place there.

Egemen Bagis, foreign policy adviser to Prime Minister Erdogan, said in an e-mail to the Patriarchate's advocates that the building was «not a historical church but an old pig farm. The e-mail was shared with The Associated Press by a Houston-based public relations company that is working for the patriarchate.

Bagis, who confirmed the e-mail's authenticity, denied that the building's destruction was fueled by anti-Christian sentiments.

Turkey declines to say that the Patriarch has ecumenical, or universal status. It says he is only the leader of the Greek Orthodox community in Turkey. Many Turks fear a Christian church with universal status could carve out a Vatican-like state in Istanbul, Turkey's biggest city.
http://www.pr-inside.com/island-dispute-hi...-of-r404680.htm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22837947/


Turkey says they're just destroying a ‘Pig Farm’ -

Muslims call Christians & Jews ‘Sons of apes & swine…’

How very subtle of them!

...and please note the Theological Seminary remains shut!

[arrow]

Good job Chase...

Your topic is about the church being destroyed... But since it is obvioust that it is a lie now it suddenly became a building within the premises of the church...

You are a liar, take your hate somewhere else..


"The building lies a few miles (kilometers) away from the Halki Theological School"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22837947/

[Hosank]

You told us that if anyone dared to protest they would be murdered or tortured.

actually, in turkey..ethnic minorities don't even need to protest to get attacked, tortured and so on...


(istambul porgoms)

Then you told us that they were actually attacked, from a thousand kilometer distant stadium by getting protested..

first. as i mentionned earlier, killing men is one thing, killing ideas is another. you do not have to murder all the armenians in istambul to make a point. symbolism creates a great deal in this world. and you do not have to be right there to destroy an idea, you could be in a stadium in trabizon, or in indonesia for all i care.

also, as i mentionned most of those who protested where left winger turks, not armenians. what is the significance of this? well people seem to respect your cause when it's their own kind forwarding it. let me give you an example, during the american civil rights movement, most people were against it when the blacks where protesting, but then most protestors became whites...when people saw whites protesting for black rights, there were less attacks on the protestors...

i do not agree with many of his ideas, and some armenian politicians have used him for their own goals, but that does not go for everyone, but at least he believed in peace and understanding, which could only be done with recognition of crimes against us. he believed that armenians and turks could coexist in peace, and you know what, at least one person between us believed in this, something that both turks and armenians alike would have needed..but that matters not today, because those ideas died with him.
you don't have to agree with him, but killing him does not fix anything.

[arrow]

1. that is the old picture

2. i am sure you have many times over watched the news and seen large protests by UK or european muslims. i am sure you also know damn well that if armenians or greeks staged such protests, they would be murdered in the streets.

Hosank, can you please tell us what you tried to tell with the 2 statements I quoted ? Since now we all know that the picture is not old and there were thousands in the streets protesting..

[Hosank]

lol..what are you talking about?
first off..we know the pic is the pre-demolition one...(since the building is still standing in the pic, thus contradicting the term 'demolition')

and second, had you at least read the post you quoted, you would have seen that i wrote..

i am sure you have many times over watched the news and seen large protests by UK or european muslims. i am sure you also know damn well that if armenians or greeks staged such protests, they would be murdered in the streets.

ARMENIANS AND GREEKS...but we know that 100 armenians surrounded by 99990 turks and kurds is not an armenian or greek protest..

jeez..you really are trying to build an argument out of anything...

[arrow]

lol..what are you talking about?
first off..we know the pic is the pre-demolition one...(since the building is still standing in the pic, thus contradicting the term 'demolition')

and second, had you at least read the post you quoted, you would have seen that i wrote..
ARMENIANS AND GREEKS...but we know that 100 armenians surrounded by 99990 turks and kurds is not an armenian or greek protest..

jeez..you really are trying to build an argument out of anything...

You are a child and I know I am wasting my time with you but here you go .

Chase posted a few posts back, trying to come out of her lies since she was busted on them, that the church in the picture was destroyed. The picture belongs to a church that is still active. Then she posted an article from a Turkish guy as a reply to me calling her a liar, which is a solid fact she is one, and the article says that the building mentioned is actually a few miles away from the church within it's premises. So the church was never harmed.... As my friend told me on the phone...

And you sir, don't know when to give up.

You said the porestors would be killed if they dare to do so, I porved you wrong. Then you said the protest in Trabzon stadium during a football match is actually the attack you meant and blahed blahed. Then you can't find anything better and now you try to hide behind numbers. Give me the number of Turks, Greeks and Ermeni in that crowd and source it. I say all of them were Ermeni Turks since they called themselves so. You called me and other Turks more than once that actually assimilated ermeni or greeks right? Prove me wrong or just shut up.

[chase]

Island dispute highlights unease of Turkey's religious minorities

By C. ONUR ANT - Associated Press Writer
© AP
2008-01-25 12:00:37 -

ISTANBUL, Turkey (AP) - The Orthodox church says it's a historic monastery, and the Turkish government describes it as old pig farm. A dispute over a dilapidated structure highlights tension over Turkey's religious minorities, a key concern as the European Union considers membership for the Muslim-majority nation.

In November, forest ministry officials knocked down part of a building that the church said was a monastery on Heybeliada, an island in the Sea of Marmara off Istanbul. They said renovation there was illegal because it was taking place on government property.

Now the ruins are the subject of a legal battle between the government and the Istanbul-based Orthodox Patriarchate, which has been hosting Greek Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis during his trip to Turkey this week, the first by a Greek premier in almost five decades.

Greece has been an advocate of the Greek Orthodox minority in Turkey, though Greek opposition parties have blamed the government for not doing enough to support the dwindling community.

The row over the building underlines the unease of Turkey's religious minorities. Many Turks view the demands of those minorities with suspicion, fearing they could undermine national unity in an echo of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire at the beginning of the 20th century.

Rights groups claim ultranationalists, often with the tacit approval of state officials, bully anyone pushing for minority rights into silence through court actions, threats and even violence. Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said his government will not tolerate ethnic nationalism or discrimination.

The dispute in the Sea of Marmara is the latest episode of a problematic past between the Patriarchate and the Turkish state. The church has long called for the reopening of its theology school on Heybeliada, which was shut down in 1985 after the last students graduated.

The official argument for the seminary's closure is that a religious institution without government oversight is not compatible with secular institutions of Turkey, a country where all Muslim clerics are trained and paid by the government, and are handed scripts of Friday sermons by a state agency.

Patriarch Bartholomew says Ankara refuses to open the seminary because it aims to prevent the church from raising new leaders. The church's leader has to be Turkish, which makes it difficult for the community of several thousand to produce any candidates.

The Greek premier, Karamanlis, said Wednesday in Ankara that the opening of the school was something Turkey should «deal with sincerely» as it seeks EU membership.

Bartholomew said he used to pray once a year at the building that was knocked down by government officials. Dositheos Anagnostopoulos, a spokesman for the Patriarchate, said the plot is where the historic Makarios Monastery once stood.

Earlier, our properties were taken away without any court ruling, Anagnostopoulos said. But this is the first time a church is being demolished.


A local official in Heybeliada, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to the media, said the Orthodox church was unfairly trying to erect a new house of worship in place of an old, deserted one. He said the building, now a pile of roof tiles and stones filling a narrow hall, was long left on its own with no religious ceremonies taking place there.

Egemen Bagis, foreign policy adviser to Prime Minister Erdogan, said in an e-mail to the Patriarchate's advocates that the building was «not a historical church but an old pig farm. The e-mail was shared with The Associated Press by a Houston-based public relations company that is working for the patriarchate.

Bagis, who confirmed the e-mail's authenticity, denied that the building's destruction was fueled by anti-Christian sentiments.

Turkey declines to say that the Patriarch has ecumenical, or universal status. It says he is only the leader of the Greek Orthodox community in Turkey. Many Turks fear a Christian church with universal status could carve out a Vatican-like state in Istanbul, Turkey's biggest city.
http://www.pr-inside.com/island-dispute-hi...-of-r404680.htm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22837947/

Earlier, our properties were taken away without any court ruling, Anagnostopoulos said. But this is the first time a church is being demolished.

The Church was demolished and their Seminary remains shut! Enough with your taqiyya!

The Pact of Umar:
The dhimmi must not be allowed to restore churches in the dar-ul-Islam…etc
http://www.domini.org/openbook/umar.htm

[arrow]

Nice copy paste I bet you can do it again

[Hosank]

weeelll...she just proved you wrong for me..

and no i am not trying to change my words..maybe you don't understand english (which is understandable) or you simply have no grip on reality..

1. i said that in history, armenians DID get killed for protesting..and that this isn't a thing of the past. and i don't see what you are arguing about since hrant dink was afterall killed because he was an armenian speaking out against injustice, and for peace. so the only armenian who did speak out was killed.
as i already mentionned, there is a difference between armenians speaking out for their rights, and turks speaking out for the rights of armenians. and both ways..these movements were crushed..in the case of the armenians of hrant dink, it was outright murder, in the case of the turks..it was counter protests by greywolves.
because it is not simple to kill people, but one can also kill ideas. once you understand this, you will see that i am not playing around with words..but speaking out right.

[arrow]

Oh I do understand english pretty well and I realise a person trying to sneak past his comments and lies when I see one.

In your case ,

1- we now know that the picture is not old, the topic chase posted is a lie.

2- you said "i am sure you have many times over watched the news and seen large protests by UK or european muslims. i am sure you also know damn well that if armenians or greeks staged such protests, they would be murdered in the streets." and I porved you wrong.

3- you later stated that those protestors were not majority armenias and I asked for your source on the numbers you gave and you said nothing about it. The protestors were shouting " we are all ermeni , we are all hrant"...

4- the subject was about the church being destoryed which turned out to be another lie from Chase. Not your ermeni genocide claims.

5- she proved nothing but she is a hater.

[chase]

Oh I do understand english pretty well and I realise a person trying to sneak past his comments and lies when I see one.

In your case ,

1- we now know that the picture is not old, the topic chase posted is a lie.

2- you said "i am sure you have many times over watched the news and seen large protests by UK or european muslims. i am sure you also know damn well that if armenians or greeks staged such protests, they would be murdered in the streets." and I porved you wrong.

3- you later stated that those protestors were not majority armenias and I asked for your source on the numbers you gave and you said nothing about it. The protestors were shouting " we are all ermeni , we are all hrant"...

4- the subject was about the church being destoryed which turned out to be another lie from Chase. Not your ermeni genocide claims.

5- she proved nothing but she is a hater.

Island dispute highlights unease of Turkey's religious minorities

By C. ONUR ANT - Associated Press Writer
© AP
2008-01-25 12:00:37 -

ISTANBUL, Turkey (AP) - The Orthodox church says it's a historic monastery, and the Turkish government describes it as old pig farm. A dispute over a dilapidated structure highlights tension over Turkey's religious minorities, a key concern as the European Union considers membership for the Muslim-majority nation.

In November, forest ministry officials knocked down part of a building that the church said was a monastery on Heybeliada, an island in the Sea of Marmara off Istanbul. They said renovation there was illegal because it was taking place on government property.

Now the ruins are the subject of a legal battle between the government and the Istanbul-based Orthodox Patriarchate, which has been hosting Greek Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis during his trip to Turkey this week, the first by a Greek premier in almost five decades.

Greece has been an advocate of the Greek Orthodox minority in Turkey, though Greek opposition parties have blamed the government for not doing enough to support the dwindling community.

The row over the building underlines the unease of Turkey's religious minorities. Many Turks view the demands of those minorities with suspicion, fearing they could undermine national unity in an echo of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire at the beginning of the 20th century.

Rights groups claim ultranationalists, often with the tacit approval of state officials, bully anyone pushing for minority rights into silence through court actions, threats and even violence. Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said his government will not tolerate ethnic nationalism or discrimination.

The dispute in the Sea of Marmara is the latest episode of a problematic past between the Patriarchate and the Turkish state. The church has long called for the reopening of its theology school on Heybeliada, which was shut down in 1985 after the last students graduated.

The official argument for the seminary's closure is that a religious institution without government oversight is not compatible with secular institutions of Turkey, a country where all Muslim clerics are trained and paid by the government, and are handed scripts of Friday sermons by a state agency.

Patriarch Bartholomew says Ankara refuses to open the seminary because it aims to prevent the church from raising new leaders. The church's leader has to be Turkish, which makes it difficult for the community of several thousand to produce any candidates.

The Greek premier, Karamanlis, said Wednesday in Ankara that the opening of the school was something Turkey should «deal with sincerely» as it seeks EU membership.

Bartholomew said he used to pray once a year at the building that was knocked down by government officials. Dositheos Anagnostopoulos, a spokesman for the Patriarchate, said the plot is where the historic Makarios Monastery once stood.

Earlier, our properties were taken away without any court ruling, Anagnostopoulos said. But this is the first time a church is being demolished.


A local official in Heybeliada, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to the media, said the Orthodox church was unfairly trying to erect a new house of worship in place of an old, deserted one. He said the building, now a pile of roof tiles and stones filling a narrow hall, was long left on its own with no religious ceremonies taking place there.

Egemen Bagis, foreign policy adviser to Prime Minister Erdogan, said in an e-mail to the Patriarchate's advocates that the building was «not a historical church but an old pig farm. The e-mail was shared with The Associated Press by a Houston-based public relations company that is working for the patriarchate.

Bagis, who confirmed the e-mail's authenticity, denied that the building's destruction was fueled by anti-Christian sentiments.

Turkey declines to say that the Patriarch has ecumenical, or universal status. It says he is only the leader of the Greek Orthodox community in Turkey. Many Turks fear a Christian church with universal status could carve out a Vatican-like state in Istanbul, Turkey's biggest city.
http://www.pr-inside.com/island-dispute-hi...-of-r404680.htm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22837947/

Earlier, our properties were taken away without any court ruling, Anagnostopoulos said. But this is the first time a church is being demolished.

The Church was demolished and their Seminary remains shut! Enough with your taqiyya!

The Pact of Umar:
The dhimmi must not be allowed to restore churches in the dar-ul-Islam…etc
http://www.domini.org/openbook/umar.htm

[chase]

http://www.middleeastinfo.org/forum/index....rt=#entry117746


I call that hate speech. Do you?

[arrow]

Chase, you are in mud pool and the more you struggle the deeper you go in dirt..

That building is 3 kilometers away from the Church itself. Read your own article. The patriach said, according to your article, he used to go and pray once year in the building. I say, for a guy that is only supposed to pray and preach 24/7 , once a year is defiantly nothing

And you are certainly the best liar I have ever met. Untill I called my friend I almost believed you... Anyways I will be in Istanbul this may and I will take a picture for you, our little paraniod, islamofobic, liar, hater member.

[Hosank]

Chase, you are in mud pool and the more you struggle the deeper you go in dirt..

actually arrow, to anyone with logic, this would be an accurate descrpition of yourself (and by consequent, a nice metaphore for your country as a whole). find a scape goat for your own misgivings...

That building is 3 kilometers away from the Church itself. Read your own article. The patriach said, according to your article, he used to go and pray once year in the building. I say, for a guy that is only supposed to pray and preach 24/7 , once a year is defiantly nothing

lol, great consideration for religious minorities...or propertyrights as a whole....ah, they are christians, and they don't used it everyday...might as well trash the place...
you know, you have spent an awful time in vancouver, why don't we bulldoze your family home in istambul, since it seems that in your opinion that is justifiable...

and I porved you wrong.

funny that just after assuring me of your full comprehension of the english language, you move along to proving to me that you are still quite far from fully understanding the subtleties of the english language. i could spend my time answering numerous posts in which you demonstrate your incompetence over and over (as i usually do), or you can print this convo page, and go find a place of scholarly learning within vancouver (i suppose they have universities in bc) and find an english professor...let him explain to you that the english language is a rich one, and show you the real meaning, for i am tired of repeating myself...

because once again..

i am sure you also know damn well that if armenians or greeks staged such protests, they would be murdered in the streets

this still stands.
i showed you with pictures one of the last times armenians and greeks were confronted by turks (and it would be a pleasure for me to show you more, and talk about other 'protests' which resulted in bloody massacre)
and the only 'proof' you had to counter this was the hrant dink protests...of which the overwhelming majority of participants wern't armenian or greek, but turks...and were sparked BY THE MURDER OF AN ARMENIAN WHO DARED SPEAK OUT..which in itself is enough to justify my remark. so please, you are.. (oh..how did you put it when speaking to chase?) "Chase, you are in mud pool and the more you struggle the deeper you go in dirt.."

the story didn't turn out to be a lie, you just labeled it as such, and god help the world when law will be decided by the perogative of people like you.

[arrow]

actually arrow, to anyone with logic, this would be an accurate descrpition of yourself (and by consequent, a nice metaphore for your country as a whole). find a scape goat for your own misgivings...
lol, great consideration for religious minorities...or propertyrights as a whole....ah, they are christians, and they don't used it everyday...might as well trash the place...
you know, you have spent an awful time in vancouver, why don't we bulldoze your family home in istambul, since it seems that in your opinion that is justifiable...
funny that just after assuring me of your full comprehension of the english language, you move along to proving to me that you are still quite far from fully understanding the subtleties of the english language. i could spend my time answering numerous posts in which you demonstrate your incompetence over and over (as i usually do), or you can print this convo page, and go find a place of scholarly learning within vancouver (i suppose they have universities in bc) and find an english professor...let him explain to you that the english language is a rich one, and show you the real meaning, for i am tired of repeating myself...

because once again..

this still stands.
i showed you with pictures one of the last times armenians and greeks were confronted by turks (and it would be a pleasure for me to show you more, and talk about other 'protests' which resulted in bloody massacre)
and the only 'proof' you had to counter this was the hrant dink protests...of which the overwhelming majority of participants wern't armenian or greek, but turks...and were sparked BY THE MURDER OF AN ARMENIAN WHO DARED SPEAK OUT..which in itself is enough to justify my remark. so please, you are.. (oh..how did you put it when speaking to chase?) "Chase, you are in mud pool and the more you struggle the deeper you go in dirt.."

the story didn't turn out to be a lie, you just labeled it as such, and god help the world when law will be decided by the perogative of people like you.

You never surpirse me, you write tons of stuff but say nothing. You are unable to understand a joke ( actually you do but you are dirty enough to use whatever it takes to make yourself look rightous ).

The article is about a church that is destroyed. The church is not destoryed is the point. End of argument.

[Hosank]

You never surpirse me, you write tons of stuff but say nothing. You are unable to understand a joke ( actually you do but you are dirty enough to use whatever it takes to make yourself look rightous ).

The article is about a church that is destroyed. The church is not destoryed is the point. End of argument.

lol...so all of the sudden it's ajoke? this is the 3rd time you try to pull this.
and it's end of argument because you say it is? how familiarrrr..

[arrow]

lol...so all of the sudden it's ajoke? this is the 3rd time you try to pull this.
and it's end of argument because you say it is? how familiarrrr..

It is the end of this argument becouse the church is not destroyed. And yea, once a year praying in that building was the joke hence the smily. I , being the prover of the lie, is the last person to pull away from anything.

It is actually ironically funny how you 2 try to bash us on every chance possible and sometimes jump to conclusions. And in your excitement you forget to check the reliabilty of your sources and make yourselves look funny, sometimes stupid ( no offense ).

About this topic, you claimed that the picture was taken before the so called incident so the building looked "not destroyed". Your prejudice clouds your common sense. I am not even bothering to ask about your source on the number of protestors after Dink's murder..

And Chase, she is so low, she commented about argentinian team and called them Turks...

Anyways, if your purpose here is to release your anger on us and try to relax a bit in your daily life, fine by me I will play along.

But if you are really into trying to know each other then please do act so. And we really need to stick to the topics subject for them to be informational.

[KHAZARI]

well chase are the christians angels ? iremember to you who are the one who do genocide to native american killed they and take they land destroyed their cultur ,who are the one who take people from africa stole they freedom and make they slaves and see they as a sub-human? the christian.who are the one who do holocaust to jewish people ?also christians.so shut up.btw are you no native american?