Israel's 2007 Accomplishments Options

[concheet]

WITH ALL THE $$$$ ISRAEL is forced to use to defend itself, see what great contributions it has given the world this year.
......


Despite the second Lebanon war, the divestments, and the boycotts, Israel's economy enjoyed the largest growth in its GNP of any Western country at 8% for the last quarter of 2006. Foreign investment hit a remarkable high of over US$13 billion and the budget deficit was under 1%. Industrial exports, excluding diamonds, rose 11% to $29.3 billion in 2006 with the hi-tech sector leading the surge, according to the Manufacturers Association of Israel. Israel's hi-tech industry exported $14.1 billion in goods last year, growing 20% from 2005.

What follows is a selection of Israel's achievements in the first month of 2007:

1. Scientists in Israel found that the brackish water drilled from underground desert aquifers hundreds of feet deep could be used to raise warm-water fish. The geothermal water, less than one-tenth as saline as sea water, free of pollutants, and a toasty 98 degrees on average, proves an ideal environment.
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2. Israeli-developed designer eyeglasses promise mobile phone and iPod users a personalized, high-tech video display. Available to US consumers next year, Lumus-Optical's lightweight and fashionable video eyeglasses feature a large transparent screen floating in front of the viewer's face that projects their choice of movie, TV show, or video game.
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3. When Stephen Hawkings visited Israel recently, he shared his wisdom with scientists, students, and even the prime minister. But the world's most renown victim of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS), or Lou Gehrig's disease, also learned something - due to the Israeli Association for ALS' advanced work in both embryonic and adult stem cell research, as well as its proven track record with neurodegenerative diseases, the Israeli research community is well on its way to finding a treatment for this fatal disease which affects 30,000 Americans.
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4. Israeli start-up Veterix has developed an innovative new electronic capsule that sits in the stomach of a cow, sheep, or goat, sending out real-time information on the health of the herd to the farmer via email or cellphone. The e-capsule, which also sends out alerts if animals are distressed, injured, or lost, is now being tested on a herd of cows in the hopes that the device will lead to tastier and healthier meat and milk supplies.
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5. The millions of Skype users worldwide will soon have access to the newly developed KishKish lie-detector. This free Internet service, based on voice stress analysis (a technique commonly used in criminal investigations), will be able to measure just how truthful that person on the other end of the line really is.
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6. Beating cardiac tissue has been created in a lab from human embryonic stem cells by researchers at the Rappaport Medical Faculty and the Technion-Israel Institute of Technology's biomedical engineering faculty. The work of Dr. Shulamit Levenberg and Prof. Lior Gepstein has also led to the creation of tiny blood vessels within the tissue, making possible its implantation in a human heart.
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7. Israel's Magal Security Systems is a worldwide leader in computerized security systems with products used in more than 70 countries around the world protecting anything from national borders to nuclear facilities, refineries, and airports. The company's latest product, DreamBox, a state-of-the-art security system that includes intelligent video, audio and sensor management, is now being used by a major water authority on the US East Coast to safeguard the utility's sites.
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8. It's common knowledge that dogs have better night vision than humans and a vastly superior sense of smell and hearing. Israel's Bio-Sense Technologies recently delved further and electronically analysed 350 different barks. Finding that dogs of all breeds and sizes bark the same alarm when they sense a threat, the firm has designed the dog bark-reader, a sensor that can pick up a dog's alarm bark and alert the human operators. This is just one of a batch of innovative security systems to emerge from Israel, which Forbes calls "the go-to country for anti-terrorism technologies."
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9. Israeli company BioControl Medical sold its first electrical stimulator to treat urinary incontinence to a US company for $50 million. Now it is working on CardioFit, which uses electrical nerve stimulation to treat congestive heart failure. With nearly five million Americans presently affected by heart failure and more than 400,000 new cases diagnosed yearly, the CardioFit is already generating a great deal of excitement as the first device with the potential to halt this deadly disease.
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10. One year after Norway's Socialist Left Party launched its boycott of Israel, the importing of Israeli goods has increased by 15%, the strongest increase in many years, Statistics Norway reports.


http://mideasttruth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6963


Here is another great website on Israel's many accomplishments and contributions to the world.

http://www.israel21.org
_________________

[Udi John]

Hi Concheet,

While I appreciate and celebrate Israel's continuing achievements, I would love for Israel to display additional heroism in another area: Break the "Western" vs. "non-Western" and "First World" vs. "Third World" oppositional model.

I know that it may do so for reasons of international politics (appealing especially to U.S. public opinion), but I feel that when the Israeli government and intelligentsia present Israel to the world as a "Western" nation, it damages the causes of peace and longevity of the nation, and disrespects the vast majority of Israel's population, who are Jews with roots in Arab and Muslim countries (at least 50%) or Arab citizens (about 20%).

Israel is located in the heart of the Middle East and its citizens are overwhelmingly people who could legitimately be considered "non-Western."

I would rather see Israel break the current mold and, instead of calling itself "Western" (or aspiring to be somehow "non-Western" as some Leftists seem to imply it should), refer to itself as "an open, liberal democratic Middle Eastern state." This would not only assert Israel's right to exist in the Middle East, but would challenge other Middle Eastern societies to move in the direction of liberal democracy. It would make it a little harder for Arab officials and intellectuals to dismiss democracy as a "'Western' fallacy." It would also help Israel's Mizrahi Jews, if not Arab citizens, feel less marginalized.

Shalom/Salaam/Shlama/Khoda Hafez,
John

[Hosank]

though i agree with you, we most also say that isreal is economically considered a western nation, as is s. korea and japan for instance, even though they are far from western in the logical sense of the word

[Udi John]

Parev Hosank,

Your point is well-taken, but what I am suggesting is that it's time to break out of the old "Eastern" vs. "Western" model. Israel is in a unique position in which it can help make that change, so that "Eastern" and "Western" someday can be more about culture than about democratic politics and economic development (or lack thereof).

Best,
John

[concheet]

Hi Concheet,

While I appreciate and celebrate Israel's continuing achievements, I would love for Israel to display additional heroism in another area: Break the "Western" vs. "non-Western" and "First World" vs. "Third World" oppositional model.

I know that it may do so for reasons of international politics (appealing especially to U.S. public opinion), but I feel that when the Israeli government and intelligentsia present Israel to the world as a "Western" nation, it damages the causes of peace and longevity of the nation, and disrespects the vast majority of Israel's population, who are Jews with roots in Arab and Muslim countries (at least 50%) or Arab citizens (about 20%).

While I see something in your point, I respectfully disagree. Everything written in the above post is true (and more) to the best of my knowledge. Israel is a leader in so many ways. What is really wrong with acknowledging that Israel is advanced in research that will lead to the health and wellbeing of all the world's citizenry? It is not as if she is keeping all her advances to herself!

The fact that it does these things is not really due to a Western/nonWestern or First World/Third World dichotomy. There is nothing unique in the West or in the First World that leads people to be scientific and/or creative. It is merely a respect for education and an intellectual curiosity that allowed Jews to build a country that respects education and creativity, as well as a sense of obligation to help and return something to the world. It is a frame of mind that is positive and built on a foundation of freedom.

It is not because the countries surrounding Israel are not "Western" or "First World" that they are doing less well than Israel. It is because they are subsumed by an Islamic culture that dictates to them and does not respect individual initiative unless it be to blow oneself to smithereens as a weapon (martyr). It doesn't take an education or personal creativity to do that...

Your suggestion reminds me of the father telling his bright young daughter not to show off her intelligence because boys don't like girls who might be "smarter" than they are. Instead he asks her to 'put her light under a barrel' because others may be offended by it and she herself hurt because she won't find a 'nice' husband. This is a form of human sacrifice, all too common even in the West not so very long ago.

Israel should be proud of herself and not ashamed. Her friends will be her friends because of who she really is, a bright and glowing culture, and not because she is displaying some kind of false modesty and and pretending to be other than who she is.

Israel is not America and she is not "The West." In fact, in so many ways Israel is totally unique among all the cultures. She will have to find an accommodation with her neighbors but one that is on at least an equal footing. It is also up to her neighbors to find a way to accommodate her, as well.

I would rather see Israel break the current mold and, instead of calling itself "Western" (or aspiring to be somehow "non-Western" as some Leftists seem to imply it should), refer to itself as "an open, liberal democratic Middle Eastern state."

I have no objection to Israel referring to herself as you say, it sounds good to me. It is not accepted as such by its neighbors however... all of whom consider "an open, liberal democratic ...state" just to be another way of saying "Western"... In fact, they say "Democracy, Hypocrisy..." and respect it not at all.


.

[Hosank]

i agree that in theory, isreal should not be considered a western state, because it has a different history and culture, even though many of it's population do originate from europe.

it does have a liberal democracy and a market economy, as most western nations do, but it would be nice to see those criteria as being those of any civilized nation, not only of a western country.

[concheet]

i agree that in theory, isreal should not be considered a western state, because it has a different history and culture, even though many of it's population do originate from europe.

it does have a liberal democracy and a market economy, as most western nations do, but it would be nice to see those criteria as being those of any civilized nation, not only of a western country.

yes, that about sums up my feelings as well

[Udi John]

While I see something in your point, I respectfully disagree. Everything written in the above post is true (and more) to the best of my knowledge. Israel is a leader in so many ways. What is really wrong with acknowledging that Israel is advanced in research that will lead to the health and wellbeing of all the world's citizenry? It is not as if she is keeping all her advances to herself!

The fact that it does these things is not really due to a Western/nonWestern or First World/Third World dichotomy. There is nothing unique in the West or in the First World that leads people to be scientific and/or creative. It is merely a respect for education and an intellectual curiosity that allowed Jews to build a country that respects education and creativity, as well as a sense of obligation to help and return something to the world. It is a frame of mind that is positive and built on a foundation of freedom.

It is not because the countries surrounding Israel are not "Western" or "First World" that they are doing less well than Israel. It is because they are subsumed by an Islamic culture that dictates to them and does not respect individual initiative unless it be to blow oneself to smithereens as a weapon (martyr). It doesn't take an education or personal creativity to do that...

Your suggestion reminds me of the father telling his bright young daughter not to show off her intelligence because boys don't like girls who might be "smarter" than they are. Instead he asks her to 'put her light under a barrel' because others may be offended by it and she herself hurt because she won't find a 'nice' husband. This is a form of human sacrifice, all too common even in the West not so very long ago.

Israel should be proud of herself and not ashamed. Her friends will be her friends because of who she really is, a bright and glowing culture, and not because she is displaying some kind of false modesty and and pretending to be other than who she is.

Israel is not America and she is not "The West." In fact, in so many ways Israel is totally unique among all the cultures. She will have to find an accommodation with her neighbors but one that is on at least an equal footing. It is also up to her neighbors to find a way to accommodate her, as well. [my bold - JE]

I have no objection to Israel referring to herself as you say, it sounds good to me. It is not accepted as such by its neighbors however... all of whom consider "an open, liberal democratic ...state" just to be another way of saying "Western"... In fact, they say "Democracy, Hypocrisy..." and respect it not at all.
.

Hi Concheet,

If I didn't know you better, I would have assumed that you didn't read my post carefully. Perhaps I have not expressed myself clearly.

I want Israel to continue to be a dynamic society and scientific innovator. I further believe that it is totally appropriate that Israel is proud of its achievements and "toots its own horn" about them, particularly since a substantial portion of world opinion denies Israel's right to exist.

My only suggestion here was that Israel's political leaders and intellectuals stop trying to "package" and conceptualize Israel as a "Western" country. Your comment above--which I've bolded for emphasis--underscores my point. If Israel were to emphasize its Middle Eastern-ness, it would be an excellent way to assert its right to exist in the Middle East as an equal of Arab and non-Arab nations in the region. I have no illusions, though, in the short term about this creating a big change in opinion on the "Arab Street."

I recognize that for Israel to stop presenting itself as a "'Western' nation" is not without risks, which is why I stated that for it to do so would be "heroic."

Having lived in Israel--mostly among non-Ashkenazi (non-European) Jews and Israeli Arabs in the Galilee--I am also concerned that the "Western nation" conception of Israel leaves about 70% of the population feeling (to varying degrees) disenfrancised. An Israeli once asked me if I had ever travelled in Europe. I told him that I had been to Greece (the only European nation I had visited at the time). He said, "Greece isn't Europe. They're...you know...like us." I would like to see the allocation of Israeli government funding for the arts reflect this reality.

The problem is that Israel's packaging itself as "Western" is precisely it's pretending to be other than she is.

Best,
John

[concheet]

Hi Concheet,

If I didn't know you better, I would have assumed that you didn't read my post carefully. Perhaps I have not expressed myself clearly.

I want Israel to continue to be a dynamic society and scientific innovator. I further believe that it is totally appropriate that Israel is proud of its achievements and "toots its own horn" about them, particularly since a substantial portion of world opinion denies Israel's right to exist.

My only suggestion here was that Israel's political leaders and intellectuals stop trying to "package" and conceptualize Israel as a "Western" country. Your comment above--which I've bolded for emphasis--underscores my point. If Israel were to emphasize its Middle Eastern-ness, it would be an excellent way to assert its right to exist in the Middle East as an equal of Arab and non-Arab nations in the region. I have no illusions, though, in the short term about this creating a big change in opinion on the "Arab Street."

I recognize that for Israel to stop presenting itself as a "'Western' nation" is not without risks, which is why I stated that for it to do so would be "heroic."

Having lived in Israel--mostly among non-Ashkenazi (non-European) Jews and Israeli Arabs in the Galilee--I am also concerned that the "Western nation" conception of Israel leaves about 70% of the population feeling (to varying degrees) disenfrancised. An Israeli once asked me if I had ever travelled in Europe. I told him that I had been to Greece (the only European nation I had visited at the time). He said, "Greece isn't Europe. They're...you know...like us." I would like to see the allocation of Israeli government funding for the arts reflect this reality.

The problem is that Israel's packaging itself as "Western" is precisely it's pretending to be other than she is.

Best,
John

LOL I certainly have been known not to read a post carefully! Re-reading your post I see that I did in fact not read it with the attention I should have. And I know what you mean about Greece, though I think the Israeli men are more civilized in relation to their women. Now that you have clarified your point (and I have re-read your original post) I see we disagree at all. Israel does have a non-Western side and a middle-easterness that should be appreciated outside of Israel and it is not. In fact much Arab/Muslim/anti-Israel propaganda is directed just to trying to assert that Israel is simply a western colony, a colony created out of the Holocaust guilt of the Europeans.

But in fact as you point out, the vast majority of Jews have their roots in the area. In fact, most of the world doesn't realise that for centuries when people spoke of "Palestine" they meant Jews.

[Udi John]

Hi Concheet,

I've been to Israel 4 times, Greece 3 times, Egypt 2 times, Turkey once and, because of my music, mingle socially with Israelis, Arabs, Persians, Turks, Armenians, Kurds, Berbers, etc....so don't get me started on the whole "gender relations in the Near East" topic!

I would tend to agree that Israeli men are a bit more open and modern in their treatment of women than Greek men are, but I attribute this mostly to a higher prevailing level of education. Also, I suspect that, given Israel's diversity, the range of attitudes toward women is more widely varied there than in Greece.

I know of one memoir written by an American woman which really skewers Greek men and sexism: http://www.amazon.com/Dinner-Persephone-Tr...e/dp/0679744789 Normally, I can't stand travel books which adopt a hostile tone toward the nation or culture studied (e.g., Lonely Planet's Israel guides), but I found this book quite valuable nonetheless. I don't know of any similar memoirs about life in Israel.

My experiences as a single man living in Israel suggest that in Israeli culture, women are strongly programmed to expect men to be much more "macho" that a typical educated, middle-class American or Britton. Interestingly, though, the common variety of interpersonal (non-political) violence between men is much less acceptable in Israel (as in most of the macho Mediterranean world) than in the U.S.

Although I am sympathetic to the difficult PR task that Israel faces, I have to admit that the Israeli PR ads in Maxim featuring bikini-clad former female Israeli soldiers is certainly a case of “they just don’t get it.” See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6221714.stm and http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/54788/?...=680550#c680645 -- sorry I wasn’t able to find references from less Israel-bashing sources and without anti-Semitic forum postings!

Which brings me to my last point: I would be very happy if Western progressives—at least those not dedicated to wiping Israel off the map—would put less effort into complaining and “protesting” and more effort into supporting progressive forces (including feminists) within Israel (http://www.iwn.org.il/indexEn.asp , http://www.isha.org.il/default.php?lng=3, etc.).

Peace,
John

[concheet]

I refuse to go look at pictures of half-naked women, but I love the pictures here. A few were a bit suggestive, I admit; but only a few:

http://www.israelmilitary.net/showthread.php?t=13

[Udi John]

Hi Concheet,

I hope you didn't think I was approving of the half-naked photos. My point was that I don't think any government in Western Europe or North America would be backward enough on gender issues to engage in a PR campaign using bikini shots of female former soldiers. (I say this while acknowledging that Israel has a PR challenge that most Americans, Canadians, and Western Europeans can barely comprehend.)

One good thing about the photos on the link you posted: They are a pretty fair (no pun intended) representation of Israel's ethnic diversity.

Peace,
John

[concheet]

LOL, no I appreciated your point and agree with it. It is a dubious "accomplishment" at best. Sometimes I think Jews are the world's dumbest people. I guess I can get away with saying that seeing that I is one (which is to say -- I am one only by some people's determination of what a Jew is, not everybody's, though)

Israel has been slow to pick up the ball on PR and when it does get it, it sometimes throws it to the wrong base.

[Udi John]

Concheet,

When I start to feel that way, I remind myself of all of the Jewish people (or people of Jewish background) throughout history who contributed significantly to the world's intellectual development (Moses, Jesus, Maimonides, Isaac Troki, David Ricardo, Karl Marx, Sigmund Freud, Emile Durkheim, Eduard Bernstein, Milton Friedman, etc.). I also like to remind myself that the Jewish people, having been persecuted by such a diversity of regimes, often display a rare political maturity (for example, Jewish Soviet dissidents didn't express nostalgia for the Russian Monarchy, as did some Gentile ones, like Alexandr Solzhenitsyn).

Just my (possibly ethnocentric) thoughts...

Best,
John

[Sal-Ah-uddin]

Israel's 2007 Accomplishments

Killing hundreds of Palestinians (mostly children).

Cutting down hundreds of Olive Trees.

Plundering Bedouin Villages.

Igniting strife between Fata7 and 7amas.

Reaching 60 years of illegal occupation of Palestine.

[Hosank]

i don't think karl marx should be considered as a great contributer to humanity, i think infact that he is one of the people jews should be ashamed of...


and, sallah'din
watch this video before you make your one sided claims.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9s7LBORJJtI

[Udi John]

Sal-Ah-uddin: Although I have always been critical of Israel and many of its policies, I would match its achievements and human rights record against the Arab World's any day. How have the Kurds been treated in Syria and Iraq?

Hi Hosank: In listing Karl Marx, I was neither expressing pride in him nor condemnation. I was simply listing Jews (or people of Jewish ancestry) who had a significant intellectual impact on the world. I was responding to Concheet's description of feelings, as a Jew, of Jews being "stupid." Although stupidity is hardly a common stereotype of Jews, anti-Semites are so many and varied in our world, I though I should respond. As a practicing (Conservative/Renewal) Jew, I am hardly "proud" of Jesus; as a leftist, I am hardly "proud" of Milton Friedman. However, before condemning Karl Marx (unless we are condemning him for being an anti-Semite, which he was), we should think clear-headedly about what he wrote (I assume you have read all of his most significant writings) and whether he can be blamed for the actions of his supposed followers (Lenin, Stalin, Mao, etc.) who lived and ruled long after he died. I am as opposed to fundamentalist Marxism as I am to fundamentalist Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. But that does not mean that there is no value to the Torah, New Testament, Quran, and/or Das Kapital.

Peace,
John

[concheet]

As a practicing (Conservative/Renewal) Jew...

In looking that up I found a page that included this:

But in Beyt Tikkun, following the path articulated by Rabbi Michael Lerner, we are finding a way to reclaim that which is most spiritually and ethically powerful and most beautiful in the Jewish tradition. We are creating a vibrant Jewish community, and we hope that you'll join us.

Are you of the Tikkun school of C/R Jew, do you mind if I ask?

[Udi John]

Hi Concheet,

Rabbi Michael Lerner is an acquaintance of mine, but I am not a member of his community. Personally, I agree with some but not all of his political views, especially of late. (Don't want to go into any more detail in a public forum.)

My wife and I are members of a Conservative synagogue, but one which is much more liberal politically and socially than most. When choosing our synagogue to join, it was for us a choice between a Conservative and a Renewal congregation. Given our level of Jewish observance and spritual needs, neither an Orthodox (too strict and socially isolated and conservative) nor a Reform (too distanced from Jewish Tradition and spiritually uninspiring) congregation were considered. I suppose I use the term "Conservative/Renewal" because I belong to a Conservative congregation, but in many ways identify more with Renewal Judaism. In the end, we chose the Conservative congregation because of its stronger, more spirited worship style and impressive commitment to Jewish education.

Here is a list of US Jewish Renewal congregations: http://shamash.org/links/Synagogue_and_Temple/Renewal/

The largest Renewal-affiliated synagogue in the US: Kehilla Community Synagogue (Oakland, CA): http://www.kehillasynagogue.org/

The largest synagogue in the US unaffiliated with the Renewal Movement, but with a similar style:
B'nai Jeshurun (NYC): http://www.bj.org/

B'Shalom,
John

[concheet]

Thanks for the information. I will check it out.

[Hosank]

before condemning Karl Marx (unless we are condemning him for being an anti-Semite, which he was), we should think clear-headedly about what he wrote (I assume you have read all of his most significant writings) and whether he can be blamed for the actions of his supposed followers (Lenin, Stalin, Mao, etc.) who lived and ruled long after he died

yes, i have read almost all of his writings. believe it or not, i did enjoy the 2 first books of das kapital, because it gave an interesting outlook, and surprisingly admirative atitute towards the capitalist sytem. unfortunately, his theories were totally wrong, and have been disproved even while marx himself was alive..such as the bourgeois ability to adapt to the new social problems..

in many cases, karl marx stated that brutal, and some times even genocidal activities MUST take place in order to achieve the ultimate socialist order. many obvious things were either quite foolishly not planned out, or deliberately formated to be as such, for instance, the weird paradox of the dictatorship of the people, or the saying that the reins of power shall be handed to the working class, who ultimately no nothing about the imencely complexe functions in running a country, and usually, in better cases, know only their job, and are lucky to know how to read, but in places such as tsarist russia, where the local pesantry does not even have that luxjury, then we can obviously see how the path is set for a transition from a small ruling elite, to a much smaller, and totally autocratic one.

furthermore, either karl marx has totally misunderstood humanity as a whole, or he has done this on purpose, but he has totally underestimated the natural human will for personal rights, freedoms, and property.

the list goes on and on,..
all this to say, that i believe that the seeds of stalin, mao and polpot were clearly planted within the words of marx, the path that lead the way to the perverse horrors of the future led from the writings of that man...
the deaths of over 150 MILLION people in a period of only 70 years, making communism the single most destructive plague to have hit the planet, more then national socialism, are a direct consequence of marx.

[Udi John]

yes, i have read almost all of his writings. believe it or not, i did enjoy the 2 first books of das kapital, because it gave an interesting outlook, and surprisingly admirative atitute towards the capitalist sytem. unfortunately, his theories were totally wrong, and have been disproved even while marx himself was alive..such as the bourgeois ability to adapt to the new social problems..

in many cases, karl marx stated that brutal, and some times even genocidal activities MUST take place in order to achieve the ultimate socialist order. many obvious things were either quite foolishly not planned out, or deliberately formated to be as such, for instance, the weird paradox of the dictatorship of the people, or the saying that the reins of power shall be handed to the working class, who ultimately no nothing about the imencely complexe functions in running a country, and usually, in better cases, know only their job, and are lucky to know how to read, but in places such as tsarist russia, where the local pesantry does not even have that luxjury, then we can obviously see how the path is set for a transition from a small ruling elite, to a much smaller, and totally autocratic one.

furthermore, either karl marx has totally misunderstood humanity as a whole, or he has done this on purpose, but he has totally underestimated the natural human will for personal rights, freedoms, and property.

the list goes on and on,..
all this to say, that i believe that the seeds of stalin, mao and polpot were clearly planted within the words of marx, the path that lead the way to the perverse horrors of the future led from the writings of that man...
the deaths of over 150 MILLION people in a period of only 70 years, making communism the single most destructive plague to have hit the planet, more then national socialism, are a direct consequence of marx.

The MEIC Forums is hardly the place to debate the merits and legacy of Marx' thought and writings.

As far as I know, Marx was a critic of capitalism and the brutality which takes places under capitalism. This was evident in the Europe of Marx' day and it evident today in the Third World (although now it's millions dying unnecessarily from lack of medicine, clean water, etc.). Marx wrote very, very little about what socialism would look like. Why? Because he believed that the transition to socialism was inevitable. He can hardly be blamed for the actions of Machiavelian power grabbers like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. who decided (contrary to Marx' agrument) that socialism has to be shoved down people's throats.

The "dictatorship of the proletariat" remark in Marx' "Critique of the Gotha Program" is the only writing of his that I know that could easily be misconstrued to endorse dictatorship. Most serious scholars of Marxism don't understand it that way. To Marx, capitalism is a dictatorship of the bourgeouisie; socialism would be a (transitional) dictatorship of the proletariat in the same sense--excluding the bourgeousie--not a dictatorship in the one-man- or one-party-rule sense.

Furthermore, Marx argued that revolution would happen first in the MOST DEVELOPED countries, NOT backward Russia, but England and Germany.

If you want to argue that Marx was wrong about some things, I would have to agree with you. (I find Fundamentalist Marxists as distasteful as religious fundamentalists.)

If you want to agrue that Marx misunderstood humanity or that capitalists somehow adapted to social problems without first trying to crush movements for social justice with violent repression, I think we can argue amicably about these things (though I don't have much interest in that).

If you want to blame Marx for every a-hole moron who came along after he died and twisted his theories to suit their own mad power-grabs, well...we'll just had to agree to disagree.

I am not going to blame Marx for Stalin any more than I will blame Jesus for Tomas de Torquemada.

In the mean time, I will continue to employ Marxian theory--along with all kinds of other non-Marxist theoretical frameworks--to help me make understand and make sense of the world.

Peace,
John

[Hosank]

Machiavelian

machiavelIAN, must be armenian, loool

as to what you said, it seems you contradict yourself.

first off, i did not say that marx intended to have stalin come to power. i said that his political framework did obviously pave the way for his rise to the top of the communist chain.
second, im sure you are aware, that there was a communist system in place in germany, under the spartakists, (though for a very short time), as well as one in munich (bavaria,) and ALsace laurraine. this was industrialised germany, and not backward russia, also, hungary was a soviet socialist republic in the early 20s.

if you can then counterclaim that these republics were shortlived, and badly run, ok, i can possibly grant you that, but then, do not forget that in 1945, eastern germany, eastern austria, hungary, and the czech republic, all inudstrialised countries, became communist. and we know the end result.

also, western industral nations like france have also adopted socialistic reforms, and france to day is on the brink of collapse.

now this is the major contradiction i see in what you wrote, if you agree that marx misjudged humanity, then how can you argue that his theory would be correct? i mean, how can you complete a building when it's base is fundamentally flawed? it makes no sense. you agree that his whole theory is based on a miscalculation, but then you see it as a good idea...

and btw, the exploitation done in 3rd world countries is not by capitalists, but by communists (south east asia, china) ex-communist dictatorships..somalia, ethiopia, angola, lybia, and badly run, dictatorship prone socialistic states.

basically, it is the lact of liberal 'capitalism' that is the scourge of the 3rd world.

[Udi John]

Parev Hosank,

I really enjoy discussing Near Eastern politics and history with you. I am not enjoying this discussion at all. I am not a Marxist; I employ Marxian concepts and framworks of analysis in my thinking, along with many different kinds of non-Marxist concepts and frameworks.

I am not interested in discussing these matters point by point. By revolutions, I meant--and I think this should be pretty obvious--revolutions which succeeded in gaining and holding power in the country in question, which is not the case in any country/region you cited below. (In each case the "socialist republic" was either very quickly overthrown by domestic forces or simply imposed from outside.)

Marxism in the USSR, Communist Eastern Europe, PR China, Cuba, etc. was neither taught nor used as a theoretical framework; it is, or was, an adopted, official state religion, complete with canonical scriptures, accepted commentaries, and definitions of--and harsh sanctions for--apostasy. That kind of Marxism has very little appeal for people who live under democratic systems and with reasonably functional economies.

I am a little out-of-date on texts, having finished graduate school in 1989, but an excellent example of the use of Marxian analysis (in a non-dogmatic way) in my field of study and work is Tabb & Sawers' "Marxism and the Metropolis" (2nd ed. 1984).

If you believe that the "passive" deaths of millions of people in the Third World from hunger, lack of medical care, lack of access to clean water, etc. is not a crime against humanity as is "active" murder by Third World Leninist regimes, then, again, we can only agree to disagree.

To be honest, and forgive me if this sounds disrectful or insulting, but I find your agruments extremely one-sided and simplistic.

Peace,
John

[jordanian]

You Israelies think of only of whats the best interest of your country , even if it involves whiping out arab nations and history , killing innocent little girls and boys , developing constructive nuclear weapons and testing them on lebanon in the war , every thing you say is a lie , you play the role of the innocent victim infront of the west and the rest of the world , and put the arabs as terrorists and extremers , while it is exactly the contray , we are the victims , you are the true terrorists , tell me what happened to your people in the lebanese war , a few broken legs and cracks in the streets , while thousands of innocent lebanese civilians got killed . Also dont act as if you are an economical powerful country , if you didnt have america by your side and america didnt have you , you would have been living as dogs , palestine will never be yours , we will keep fighting even from the grave .

[Udi John]

Ahalan w'sahlan ya "Jordanian",

Sadly, the content and tone of your post is indicative of the character of political discourse in the democracy-deficient Arab World and, probably, is not worthy of a serious reply.

However, I do take particular issue with two of your comments:

1) "You Israelies..." WHAT Israelis? No Israelis have posted on this string, and very few if any Israelis post on the MEIC forums in general. If you were assuming me, based on my nomme de plume, "Udi John," "Udi" is a Turkish term which means 'oud player, which I happen to be (professionally). I am American.

2) "...you would have been living as dogs..." You are showing your anti-Jewish racism here by repeating a traditional Arab slur against Jews.

Joseph Abdel Wahid, a Jew expelled from Egypt simply because he is a Jew wrote, "But even as child, I understood that Jews were second-class citizens. Signs in the street read: El yahud kalb el arab, 'The Jews are the dogs of the Arabs.'"

...and...

"I was at the anti-Israel demonstration in front of the Israeli consulate in San Francisco on July 12 [2006]. The demonstration, organized by a Palestinian group called Al Awda, was loud, boisterous, and passionate. Suddenly and shockingly, demonstrators began chanting in Arabic: "Al Yahud Kelabna," or "the Jews are our dogs." My first reaction to the Palestinian chanting was one of disbelief. Then I felt a mixture of fear, anger, and heavy-heartedness. Terrible memories cascaded before me taking me back to when I was a young boy, growing up in Egypt. These memories included Egyptian mobs descending upon the Jewish quarter of Cairo chanting "Al Yahud Kelabna," followed by violence that left some Jews dead and injured, and the community dazed.

Mr. Abdel Wahid is actually an acquaintance of mine. His family changed their surname from Levi to Abdel Wahid in the 1890s to avoid anti-Jewish discrimination in Egypt.

Although nearly every contention you make is quite debatable, the two comments note above cross the line from political discourse--however one-sided, polemical, and laced with hyperbole--into simple bigotry.

I'd say you owe us an apology.

Ma'asalaama and Have a Nice Day,
John