How Can We Build Modern Kurdistan? Options

[Jaff Sassani]

How can we build modern Kurdistan?

Kurdistan is the home of Kurd, and none Kurd the blood are mixed from so many different groups because our homelands unfortunately are located in very strategical location on the Middle East and the Earth.

We the people suffered through millennium, we Kurd the resident of the land been subjugated by other nationalities in the past and now. To survive for over thousand of years are amazing by it self.

Our people seen and recorded in our genetic many empires come and go after the collapse of our own empire, the Medes Empire. Since Dayukku the leader of the Medes Empire no one really has been capable to unite our people.

The Sassanian Empire started in the region of our Aryan brother and sister of Persia soon after the great sprit Shah of all Aryan Shah’s the beloved son of the Arian people in the Middle East, the Ardashir Babakan who united all our people to one country under the sun among other nation on the earth like Japan, China, Roman-Europe and others.

The Sassanian become Kurdish speaker because of the Empires location among the Aryan people of Kurdistan, this is the fact so who ever want to claim Sassanian Empire to their local area or their branch of Aryan nation are wrong. The Sassanian Empire was the protector of the Zoroastrians Religion and really was for all Aryan people without any discrimination. The Empire served the Aryan people from India to Europe and from east to Turk speaker nomads.

Today will be impossible to unit such large area under one country because of the Arab influence in our homeland and the destruction of our civilization. We the people of the Sassanian origin even we are hopeless and abused by other Aryan people but we believe in the economic union are the best way to continue with the struggle to get united and liberate our people from Arab domination and superiority, by study the Islamic religion and understand the message of the God based on the modern knowledge so our people won’t be slave of rituals and practice, because we human are changeable.

The Islamic Religion split between Sunni and Shiite Islam because of the power struggle and differences between the second Islamic Khalifa Omar Bin Khtab known as the most violent ruler against the Aryan people who later become known as the founder of the Sunni Islam and the fourth Islamic Khalifa Ali Bin Abe Talib Al-Qweareyyshi the cozen and the son in law of the Prophet Mohammed who later become the founder of the Shiite Islam.

Today we Aryan people divided between the two sect of Islam above most of our people worship the Arab personality instead of God, so the mission for our educated people are to understand Islam and worship the creator of universe instead of dead Arab leaders.

To build modern Kurdistan we need to get united with all Aryan people instead of separations, we fully understand the other branches of Aryan nation like (Persian, Afghani, Pakistani and other) who has the power today they are not in the position to accept the Kurd and other branches of the powerless Aryan people as partner, they just want them to be assimilated to their branch of language and thinking.

The Kurd needs to think differently than other branches of the Aryan nation like (Persian, Afghani, Pakistani and other) who has the power today. The Kurd need to get united with the powerless branches of the Aryan people today, like (Galini from Rasht and Mazandaran, Pashtoon people in Pakistan, , Balochie people of Pakistan and Iran and others)as partner and then the powerful Aryan will come around to get united as one economic Union with every branches has their own country like European people, by accepting each other will be the source of strength not weakness.

[Udi John]

This is an Israel/Palestine forum. MEIC has a Kurdish/Kurdistan forum.

Thanks,
John

[Jaff Sassani]

Thank you for your comment, we are all connected to each others with cowmen problem in the Middle East. Our goal are to post our opinion for every conflict region in hope we will learn from each other to build better future for our children instead of hatred and misunderstanding.

I hope you liked our approach to solve our problem in the Aryan region and then the people in your region will used it to solve the Israel/Palestine conflict peacefully.

Peace my friend.

Thank you for reading our material.

This is an Israel/Palestine forum. MEIC has a Kurdish/Kurdistan forum.

Thanks,
John

[irlandahay]

Thank you for your comment, we are all connected to each others with cowmen problem in the Middle East. Our goal are to post our opinion for every conflict region in hope we will learn from each other to build better future for our children instead of hatred and misunderstanding.

I hope you liked our approach to solve our problem in the Aryan region and then the people in your region will used it to solve the Israel/Palestine conflict peacefully.

Peace my friend.

Thank you for reading our material.

Neither Israelis nor Palestinians are Aryans

[Jaff Sassani]

This is just for people living in those countries.
We answer you thank you again.

Neither Israelis nor Palestinians are Aryans

[KHAZARI]

BTW SASSANI I DONT THINK WHO THIS GOOD IDEA TALK ABOUT ARYAN UNION IN ISRAEL SECTION MY FRIEND.ADOLF HITLER TALK ABOUT THE ARYAN RACE(GERMAN) CONTRARY TO JEWISH RACE WHO WAS ןINFERIOR.I REMEMBER TO YOU WHO HITLER KILL 6.000,000 JEWISH......


THIS ONLY FRIENDLY TIP.

[irlandahay]

BTW SASSANI I DONT THINK WHO THIS GOOD IDEA TALK ABOUT ARYAN UNION IN ISRAEL SECTION MY FRIEND.ADOLF HITLER TALK ABOUT THE ARYAN RACE(GERMAN) CONTRARY TO JEWISH RACE WHO WAS ןINFERIOR.I REMEMBER TO YOU WHO HITLER KILL 6.000,000 JEWISH......
THIS ONLY FRIENDLY TIP.

And let me remind you that Turkish pride and pan turaneanism killed millions of Armenians/greeks/Assyrians/kurds and.

I am proud of being aryan. I am no nazi, but I am proud of being white, and I have a very good jewish friend, so call me a nazi...

You preach ignorance

[KHAZARI]

LOOK IRLANDAHAY.....

YOU KNOW WHO I NOT FANATIC NATIONALIST AND YOU SEE WHO MY OPINIONS. I OPPONENTS TO RACISM IN ALL.WE ARE ALL HUMAN BEING .

AND LOOK IRLANDAHAY...IN CRIMEA THE KARAIM AND THE ARMENIAN OF CRIMEA GOOD FRIEND. I NOT HATE ARMENIAN.THIS PROVED WHO OUR NATION NO ENEMIES FROM BIRTH . I HOPE WHO ONE DAY TO BE PEACE VETWEEN THE TURKS THE AZERI AND THE ARMENIAN.


ACTUALLY I KNOW ONE GUY IN MY CITY HIM MOTHER JEWISH-RUSSIAN AND HIM FATHER IS ARMENIAN.HIS NAME ASHOT AND HIM BORN IN UZBEKISTAN AND EVEN CAN SPEAK UZBEK.....

HIM NICE GUY.


ANYWAY I REALY INRTESTING SO YOU CLAIN WHO ARMENIAN RELAT TO GERMAN PEOPLE?

[arrow]

LOOK IRLANDAHAY.....

YOU KNOW WHO I NOT FANATIC NATIONALIST AND YOU SEE WHO MY OPINIONS. I OPPONENTS TO RACISM IN ALL.WE ARE ALL HUMAN BEING .

AND LOOK IRLANDAHAY...IN CRIMEA THE KARAIM AND THE ARMENIAN OF CRIMEA GOOD FRIEND. I NOT HATE ARMENIAN.THIS PROVED WHO OUR NATION NO ENEMIES FROM BIRTH . I HOPE WHO ONE DAY TO BE PEACE VETWEEN THE TURKS THE AZERI AND THE ARMENIAN.
ACTUALLY I KNOW ONE GUY IN MY CITY HIM MOTHER JEWISH-RUSSIAN AND HIM FATHER IS ARMENIAN.HIS NAME ASHOT AND HIM BORN IN UZBEKISTAN AND EVEN CAN SPEAK UZBEK.....

HIM NICE GUY.
ANYWAY I REALY INRTESTING SO YOU CLAIN WHO ARMENIAN RELAT TO GERMAN PEOPLE?

They are not related at all.

[Udi John]

Hello/Shalom/Salaam/Shlama/Merhaba/Parev/Rozhbash,

A "respected" professor of Middle East studies was once involved in a radio-broadcasted debate about the history of Jews in Arab countries. (He is a Marxist ideologue and fervent anti-Zionist, and claims that the Jews of Arab countries left either voluntarily or because they were "coaxed" into leaving by the Zionists.)

One of his opponents (a Jewish woman who barely escaped being burned alive when she left Libya for the USA in 1967) claimed that the Iraqi government and political opposition movements, influenced by Nazi anti-Semitic propaganda, enacted anti-Jewish measures and engaged in violence against Iraqi Jews.

The professor replied that there was, "...no evidence that the Iraqi government adopted Nazi racial theories." While it is quite debatable the extent to which the Iraqi government and opposition parties were influenced and motivated by Nazi propaganda, one point is quite clear: The "learned professor" appears to be making the standard mistake of assuming that (1) Any government or political movement that commits violence against minorities MUST be motivated by Nazi-type racism; and, that conversely (2) Any government or political movement that doesn't have a stated ideology of Nazi-type racism CANNOT POSSIBLY have been guilty of systematic violence against minorities.

This thinking is false and dangerous. It does an enormous disservice to the memory of the victims of Nazi Germany, as well as to other victims of violence and genocide. The "need" to equate the Armenian Genocide with the Nazi Holocaust has two results: (1) Proponents of the recognition of the Armenian Genocide--not motivated by racism at least in the Nazi sense--incorrectly equate that Genocide with the Holocaust; and (2) Deniers and apologists for the Armenian Genocide correctly show that there was no Nazi-type motivation for that Genocide (the Ottoman Empire was not a racist state in the Nazi sense) and then FALSELY and ILLOGICALLY claim that, since there is no evidence of Nazi-type racism against Armenians, the Ottomans "could not" have committed genocide against the Armenians.

One contemporary example from Iraq should help clarify my point: The fact that Saddam Hussein never adopted any kind of ideology of Kurds as being "inferior" beings (as the Nazis did toward Jews, Gypsies, etc.) did not stop him from murdering 50,000 to 100,00 (according to international human rights groups) or 182,000 (according to Kurdish organizations) Kurds in the Anfal campaign of 1986-89.

Peace,
John

[KHAZARI]

מאיפה אתה בארץ ג'ון?

[KHAZARI]

תראה ג'ון המקרה של היהודים והארמנים שונה היהודים לא היו סכנה לעם הגרמני לא הקימו גדודים חמושים ותקפו אזרחים תוך כדי סיוע לאויב בזמן מלחמה. בזמן מלחמת העולם הראשונה הרוסים תקפו את האימפריה העותמאנית דרך הקווקז הארמנים הקימו גדודים חמושים בתמיכה רוסית וסייעו להם באופן פעיל בכיבוש שטחים תוך כדי שהם לעיתים פגעו בכפריים מוסלמיים מקומיים 0(ללא הבחנה טורקים וכורדים) הצבא העותמאני שנאלץ להלחם בחזיתות רבות ספג אבדות אזרחיות רבות וגירש את הארמנים מדרום מזרח טורקיה למדינות ערב בדרך היו שם התקפות ספןנטניות של כפריים טורקים וכורדים שביקשו לנקום שאר הארמנים שהגיעו למדינות ערב נתקלו ביחס עויין מצד הערבים שלעיתים רצחו בהם.אפילו פרופסורים ישראלים אומרים שככל הנראה לא הייתה השמדה מכוונת כמו במקרה של גרמניה הנאצית אלא במלחמת אזרחים שיצאה משליטה...אל תשכח שטורקיה היא הידידה היחידה של ישראל באזור ואת היחס הסובלני של הטורקים העותמאנים כלפי היהודים מאז ומתמיד. אטטורק הגן על יהודים העלי אזרחות טורקית שלא נפגעו במלחמת העולם השניה והיה דיפלומט
טורקי חסן שאהין שקיבל הכרה כחסיד אומות עולם ביד ושם כהוקרה על הצלת מאות יהודים בזמן שכיהן כשגרירי טורקיה באוסריה בזמן מלחמת העולם השניה תוך כדי שסיכן את עצמו

[Udi John]

Shalom Khazari,

I am American. My Hebrew is kitah bet-level. I think I get the basic meaning of what you have posted, and I think that you and I are in basic agreement about the very different motivations of Nazi Germany and the Ottoman Empire in the commission of genocide.

I have pasted your Hebrew comment into a printable format. I will take it home and read it slowly, with Hebrew/English dictionary in hand.

Kol tuv,
John

[KHAZARI]

SHALOM JON

KOL TUV TO YOO TO

[concheet]

There is a rule about the forum and speaking English. The reasoning being that things may get posted here that the forum owner does not know about or want here. And that we are all hoping to understand and participate. Perhaps it is best to exchange other-language posts through the message system instead.

[concheet]

Hello/Shalom/Salaam/Shlama/Merhaba/Parev/Rozhbash,

A "respected" professor of Middle East studies was once involved in a radio-broadcasted debate about the history of Jews in Arab countries. (He is a Marxist ideologue and fervent anti-Zionist, and claims that the Jews of Arab countries left either voluntarily or because they were "coaxed" into leaving by the Zionists.)

One of his opponents (a Jewish woman who barely escaped being burned alive when she left Libya for the USA in 1967) claimed that the Iraqi government and political opposition movements, influenced by Nazi anti-Semitic propaganda, enacted anti-Jewish measures and engaged in violence against Iraqi Jews.

The professor replied that there was, "...no evidence that the Iraqi government adopted Nazi racial theories." While it is quite debatable the extent to which the Iraqi government and opposition parties were influenced and motivated by Nazi propaganda, one point is quite clear: The "learned professor" appears to be making the standard mistake of assuming that (1) Any government or political movement that commits violence against minorities MUST be motivated by Nazi-type racism; and, that conversely (2) Any government or political movement that doesn't have a stated ideology of Nazi-type racism CANNOT POSSIBLY have been guilty of systematic violence against minorities.

This thinking is false and dangerous. It does an enormous disservice to the memory of the victims of Nazi Germany, as well as to other victims of violence and genocide. The "need" to equate the Armenian Genocide with the Nazi Holocaust has two results: (1) Proponents of the recognition of the Armenian Genocide--not motivated by racism at least in the Nazi sense--incorrectly equate that Genocide with the Holocaust; and (2) Deniers and apologists for the Armenian Genocide correctly show that there was no Nazi-type motivation for that Genocide (the Ottoman Empire was not a racist state in the Nazi sense) and then FALSELY and ILLOGICALLY claim that, since there is no evidence of Nazi-type racism against Armenians, the Ottomans "could not" have committed genocide against the Armenians.

One contemporary example from Iraq should help clarify my point: The fact that Saddam Hussein never adopted any kind of ideology of Kurds as being "inferior" beings (as the Nazis did toward Jews, Gypsies, etc.) did not stop him from murdering 50,000 to 100,00 (according to international human rights groups) or 182,000 (according to Kurdish organizations) Kurds in the Anfal campaign of 1986-89.

Peace,
John

An EXCELLENT POST. Very well written and thought out.

[Udi John]

Hi Concheet,

Thanks--you flatter me, my friend! I have had a lot of time to think that one through. Those thoughts had been forming in my mind and bothering for the last 3 years or so, since the radio broadcast of the debate, and I needed to get it off my chest.

Another topic I've been thinking about lately: Israeli/Jewish - Armenian and Israeli/Jewish - Kurdish politics are very complicated. The complications are many and varied...

Pro-Armenian factors:
-Jews and Armenians as fellow "dispora" peoples
-Jews and Armenians as fellow non-Muslim minorities in the Near East
-Social and phenotypical similarities (I've been to the church fair at St. Vartan's many times and am always amazed at how much my friend's aunts and uncles remind me of my own relatives!)
-Jews and Armenians as fellow victims of genocide
-Jews and Armenians as fellow victims of Soviet repression
-Rise of Turkish Islamism cooling Israel-Turkey ties (?)

Anti-Armenian factors:
-Armenian Genocide often raised as political argument against uniqueness of Holocaust as argument against Zionism (not necessarily by Armenians)
-Armenian collaboration with Nazis during WWII (though, to be fair, this was anti-Soviet more than anti-Jewish, and was on a much smaller scale than in Eastern Europe and the Balkans; this issue may well be grossly exaggerated by pro-Turkish sources)
-Armenian/Jewish competition for living space in Old City of Jerusalem (& Israeli government policy vis a vis non-Jews)
-Israeli/Jewish political ties to Turkey as state with ties to Israel
-Israeli/Jewish emotional ties to Turkey as nation which has been "good to the Jews," and still has a substantial Jewish community

Pro-Kurdish Factors:
-Shared antipathy to Iraqi and Syrian Baathist states and Iranian Islamic Republic
-Jews and Kurds as fellow non-Arab minorities
-Sense of Jews being well-treated and well-integrated into Kurdish society (especially compared to Arab societies)
-Strong identification by Kurdish-Jewish Israelis as "Kurds" (Izik Kallah titled his early '90s CD, "Ana Kurdi"-"I am Kurdish")
-History of military collaboration between Israel and Iraqi Kurds
-Prevalence of moderate Islam in Kurdistan

Anti-Kurdish Factors:
-Israeli/Jewish political & emotional ties to Turkey (same as above)
-PKK history of Marxist ideology (seems to be been de-emphasized in favor of ethno-nationalism lately?)
-Existence of military Islamist groups in Kurdistan (e.g., Ansar Al-Islam)
-History of PKK/PLO ties (alleged?)

I've probably missed some. I should clarify that I am speaking mostly of perceptions, which may or may not be based on facts.

Peace,
John

[Dîrî]

Pro-Kurdish factors:

- Historic ties between the people of Israel and Kurdistan (Assyrian/Babylonian exile of Jews to Kurdistan)
- Substantial number of Jewish-Kurdish Israelis (between 150-200 000) - mostly based in Jerusalem
- Social and phenotypical similarities (see report by scientists and DNA tests) - close cultural affinity
- Rise of Turkish Islamism cooling Israel-Turkey ties

-Existence of military Islamist groups in Kurdistan (e.g., Ansar Al-Islam)

Not true... Ansar Al-Islam was erradicated and has not had any controll in any area of Kurdistan since 2000-03...

[Udi John]

Not true... Ansar Al-Islam was erradicated and has not had any controll in any area of Kurdistan since 2000-03...

Hi Dîrî,

I recall reading that Iraqi Kurdish forces attacked and expelled Ansar Al-Islam from their territory (in 2003, just after the US invasion of Iraq?), but the Ansaris fled to Iranian-controlled Kurdistan. Do you know of any follow-up news reports I can read?

I would also recommend a recording by Ilana Eliya, a Kurdish-Jewish-Israeli: http://www.israel-music.com/ilana_eliya/ilana_eliya/ This 1996 recording, which was made with financial assistance from the Jerusalem Municipality, includes Kurdish songs with a clear Kurdish nationalist bent, including Şivan Perwer's "Halabce" (song #3, called "Fermane"). (Of course, we shouldn't forget to see & hear Şivan Perwer's version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WELdpYVDjxc...eature=related).

Thanks and all the best,
John

[Jaff Sassani]

Hi John

We like to answering your question regarding the Kurdish Ansar Al-Islam group. They are in Iran operating openly and supported by Iranian Government, they are encouraged by the Iranian Government to recruit the Iranian Kurd, to join them in the fighting against Iranian Kurd and PKK, and they are reorganized under different names, The Iranian Government using them for two purpose as follow:

1- They are used by the Iranian Government to fight the PJAK (Kurdish freedom fighter in Iran) and PKK. fighter in Iran.
2-They are used as pressure force against Kurdish people in Kurdistan of Iraq, when the Kurdish Government won't listeen to them (Iranian) then those Islamic fighter will strat shooting at the border petrol, inded they killed many Kurdish police on the border.

Good day and peace.

Hi Dîrî,

I recall reading that Iraqi Kurdish forces attacked and expelled Ansar Al-Islam from their territory (in 2003, just after the US invasion of Iraq?), but the Ansaris fled to Iranian-controlled Kurdistan. Do you know of any follow-up news reports I can read?

I would also recommend a recording by Ilana Eliya, a Kurdish-Jewish-Israeli: http://www.israel-music.com/ilana_eliya/ilana_eliya/ This 1996 recording, which was made with financial assistance from the Jerusalem Municipality, includes Kurdish songs with a clear Kurdish nationalist bent, including Şivan Perwer's "Halabce" (song #3, called "Fermane"). (Of course, we shouldn't forget to see & hear Şivan Perwer's version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WELdpYVDjxc...eature=related).

Thanks and all the best,
John

[Rumtaya]

Pro-Kurdish factors:

- Historic ties between the people of Israel and Kurdistan (Assyrian/Babylonian exile of Jews to Kurdistan)
- Substantial number of Jewish-Kurdish Israelis (between 150-200 000) - mostly based in Jerusalem
- Social and phenotypical similarities (see report by scientists and DNA tests) - close cultural affinity
- Rise of Turkish Islamism cooling Israel-Turkey ties
Not true... Ansar Al-Islam was erradicated and has not had any controll in any area of Kurdistan since 2000-03...

I am courious about that point. How can that relation be, is it that the converterd Jews are of Iranian origins (kurdish) or is it that the Kurds are of Semetic origin (i.e. Assyrians)?

I am not tryint to get into an argument just want to knwo your thoughts.

Assyrian/Bablonian exile of Jews where not into Kurdistan, but into the Assyrian and Babylonian Empire.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...y_Assyrians.svg

They were taken also to the Assyrian Heartland.

[Dîrî]

Do you want to read some nice nationalist speech or some basic truths?

I can give you the nationalist speech:

Abraham, even if he wasn't Kurdish, his wife Sarah was from Haran, Riha - North Kurdistan...
The Jews converted Kurds to their religion - with the permission of the religious elite - when exiled in South Kurdistan...

Asenath Barzanî was the first female Jewish Rabbi...


Enough? Alright - I will stop there...

And the "basic truths" are already there in my first post... I don't realy care HOW Kurds and Jews are related - but historically we are and also genetically we are...

Discussing if Kurds are Assyrian or not is just ridiculous... Because we know that of course many Kurds have Assyrian forefathers - and many Assyrians have Kurdish forefathers... How do you like that?

[Dîrî]

Hi Dîrî,

I recall reading that Iraqi Kurdish forces attacked and expelled Ansar Al-Islam from their territory (in 2003, just after the US invasion of Iraq?), but the Ansaris fled to Iranian-controlled Kurdistan. Do you know of any follow-up news reports I can read?

I would also recommend a recording by Ilana Eliya, a Kurdish-Jewish-Israeli: http://www.israel-music.com/ilana_eliya/ilana_eliya/ This 1996 recording, which was made with financial assistance from the Jerusalem Municipality, includes Kurdish songs with a clear Kurdish nationalist bent, including Şivan Perwer's "Halabce" (song #3, called "Fermane"). (Of course, we shouldn't forget to see & hear Şivan Perwer's version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WELdpYVDjxc...eature=related).

Thanks and all the best,
John

Thank you John!

Yes the Ansar Al-Islam was sent out of Iraqi Kurdistan...

It is as Jaff explained...

I'm sorry to say you won't find any reports referencing "Ansar Al-Islam" - because they are now considered under Iranian controll - so if anything - they would be called Iranian "military", "army", "border controll" or whatever else dubious...

Thank you for the links...

Bijî Kurdistan û bijî Îsraêl...

[Rumtaya]

Do you want to read some nice nationalist speech or some basic truths?

I can give you the nationalist speech:

Abraham, even if he wasn't Kurdish, his wife Sarah was from Haran, Riha - North Kurdistan...
The Jews converted Kurds to their religion - with the permission of the religious elite - when exiled in South Kurdistan...

Asenath Barzanî was the first female Jewish Rabbi...
Enough? Alright - I will stop there...

And the "basic truths" are already there in my first post... I don't realy care HOW Kurds and Jews are related - but historically we are and also genetically we are...

Discussing if Kurds are Assyrian or not is just ridiculous... Because we know that of course many Kurds have Assyrian forefathers - and many Assyrians have Kurdish forefathers... How do you like that?

I was saying that I dont want end into an argument, so I leave it at that.
You should take care on which areas you see as Kurdistan. I like it as less as you to call my homeland by another name.

[Danno]

Pro-Armenian factors:
-Jews and Armenians as fellow "dispora" peoples
-Jews and Armenians as fellow non-Muslim minorities in the Near East
-Social and phenotypical similarities (I've been to the church fair at St. Vartan's many times and am always amazed at how much my friend's aunts and uncles remind me of my own relatives!)
-Jews and Armenians as fellow victims of genocide
-Jews and Armenians as fellow victims of Soviet repression
-Rise of Turkish Islamism cooling Israel-Turkey ties (?)

all these can be said about Assyrians by the way

Pro-Assyrian factors:
-Jews and Assyrians as fellow "dispora" peoples
-Jews and Assyrians as fellow non-Muslim minorities in the Near East
-Social and phenotypical similarities
-Jews and Assyrians as fellow victims of genocide
-Jews and Assyrians as fellow victims of Soviet repression
-Rise of Turkish Islamism cooling Israel-Turkey ties (?)

[Rumtaya]

all these can be said about Assyrians by the way

Pro-Assyrian factors:
-Jews and Assyrians as fellow "dispora" peoples
-Jews and Assyrians as fellow non-Muslim minorities in the Near East
-Social and phenotypical similarities
-Jews and Assyrians as fellow victims of genocide
-Jews and Assyrians as fellow victims of Soviet repression
-Rise of Turkish Islamism cooling Israel-Turkey ties (?)

Ture so khon, but we are not of interest for Israel, since we ae pacifists i.e. turning the right cheek.
It is said, that Kurds have noone, but the mountains....Assyrians even dont have that one!

[Udi John]

Shlama Rumtaya,

I suspect the two main reasons that Israelis don't show too much interest in the Assyrians:

1) Either they have never heard of them or that they only associate them with the pagan Assyrians of the ancient world (who were enemies of the Israelites);
2) The Assyrians are not judged as having the numbers or the kind of organization which makes them a significant military or political asset.

I strongly suspect, though, among the minority of Israelis who know about the modern Christian Assyrian community there is a great deal of sympathy for the Assyrians, as there is for other non-Muslim and non-Arab minorities in the Arab world.

The greatest point of similarity between Jews and Assyrians is our use of the related languages of Aramaic and Syriac.

Here is a CD recording (you will hear a sample--it's the first song) of a Jewish Aramaic hymn, "Yah Ribon 'Alam": http://www.israel-music.com/cantor_moshe_c...bepiout-part_2/ The singer is a Jewish prayer leader ("hazzan") of Iraqi-Jewish ancestry. (He also plays oud and/or violin on his recordings.)

Shlama Lukh,
John

[Rumtaya]

Shalom,

1) Either they have never heard of them or that they only associate them with the pagan Assyrians of the ancient world (who were enemies of the Israelites);

Werent all back then some how pagans?
I doubt that Israelis arent aware of Assyrians, at least not those who are intouch with political issues in the Middle East.

2) The Assyrians are not judged as having the numbers or the kind of organization which makes them a significant military or political asset.

That one can be, but there I aint sure too. I mean we had kind of "milita" who fought against Baath opression alongside Kurds and as we know (kurdboss just posted a artical in kurdish section) that the Mossaad (better said the Israel goverment) provided weapons for the rebels to fight Saddam.

This makes me also think, that Israelis MUST be aware about the Assyrian situation, but my friend I dont blame you guys for not suppourting us. You are just a State like everyone else who is looking for his own benefit i.e. that for the Israeli Nation and there is nothing wrong about it.

The greatest point of similarity between Jews and Assyrians is our use of the related languages of Aramaic and Syriac.

True so, you´ll also find alot of Assyrians called after jewish biblical names, mushe, abraham, salomon(we hve sheemon and shleemon) etc.

poosh bshaana (stay welcome)

[KHAZARI]

Hi Concheet,

Thanks--you flatter me, my friend! I have had a lot of time to think that one through. Those thoughts had been forming in my mind and bothering for the last 3 years or so, since the radio broadcast of the debate, and I needed to get it off my chest.

Another topic I've been thinking about lately: Israeli/Jewish - Armenian and Israeli/Jewish - Kurdish politics are very complicated. The complications are many and varied...

Pro-Armenian factors:
-Jews and Armenians as fellow "dispora" peoples
-Jews and Armenians as fellow non-Muslim minorities in the Near East
-Social and phenotypical similarities (I've been to the church fair at St. Vartan's many times and am always amazed at how much my friend's aunts and uncles remind me of my own relatives!)
-Jews and Armenians as fellow victims of genocide
-Jews and Armenians as fellow victims of Soviet repression
-Rise of Turkish Islamism cooling Israel-Turkey ties (?)

Anti-Armenian factors:
-Armenian Genocide often raised as political argument against uniqueness of Holocaust as argument against Zionism (not necessarily by Armenians)
-Armenian collaboration with Nazis during WWII (though, to be fair, this was anti-Soviet more than anti-Jewish, and was on a much smaller scale than in Eastern Europe and the Balkans; this issue may well be grossly exaggerated by pro-Turkish sources)
-Armenian/Jewish competition for living space in Old City of Jerusalem (& Israeli government policy vis a vis non-Jews)
-Israeli/Jewish political ties to Turkey as state with ties to Israel
-Israeli/Jewish emotional ties to Turkey as nation which has been "good to the Jews," and still has a substantial Jewish community

Pro-Kurdish Factors:
-Shared antipathy to Iraqi and Syrian Baathist states and Iranian Islamic Republic
-Jews and Kurds as fellow non-Arab minorities
-Sense of Jews being well-treated and well-integrated into Kurdish society (especially compared to Arab societies)
-Strong identification by Kurdish-Jewish Israelis as "Kurds" (Izik Kallah titled his early '90s CD, "Ana Kurdi"-"I am Kurdish")
-History of military collaboration between Israel and Iraqi Kurds
-Prevalence of moderate Islam in Kurdistan

Anti-Kurdish Factors:
-Israeli/Jewish political & emotional ties to Turkey (same as above)
-PKK history of Marxist ideology (seems to be been de-emphasized in favor of ethno-nationalism lately?)
-Existence of military Islamist groups in Kurdistan (e.g., Ansar Al-Islam)
-History of PKK/PLO ties (alleged?)

I've probably missed some. I should clarify that I am speaking mostly of perceptions, which may or may not be based on facts.

Peace,
John

YOU FORGOT ANOTHER TIES BETWEEN TURKS AND JEWS MY FRIEND THE KHAZAR EMPIRE WHO THEIR KING BULAN CONVER TO JUDAISM IN THE 8 CENTURY.I MYSELF ARE THEIR DESCENDANT AND I LIVE IN ISRAEL. WE ARE ETHNIC TURKS AND KEEP JEWISH RELIGION.AND PROUD IN OUR ANCESTORS.

[Rumtaya]

YOU FORGOT ANOTHER TIES BETWEEN TURKS AND JEWS MY FRIEND THE KHAZAR EMPIRE WHO THEIR KING BULAN CONVER TO JUDAISM IN THE 8 CENTURY.I MYSELF ARE THEIR DESCENDANT AND I LIVE IN ISRAEL. WE ARE ETHNIC TURKS AND KEEP JEWISH RELIGION.AND PROUD IN OUR ANCESTORS.

Cool didnt know that, I saw sometimes a map around todays Kazakhstan, showing a jewish star in it and I asked myself whats that..well now I do know

thanks for the info.

[KHAZARI]

Cool didnt know that, I saw sometimes a map around todays Kazakhstan, showing a jewish star in it and I asked myself whats that..well now I do know

thanks for the info.

'WELL MY FRIEND IN TURKEY SECTION HAVE ARTICLE ABOUT THIS TOPIC AND SOME PICTURES YOU INVITED TO VISIT AND SEE YOURSELF

[Udi John]

YOU FORGOT ANOTHER TIES BETWEEN TURKS AND JEWS MY FRIEND THE KHAZAR EMPIRE WHO THEIR KING BULAN CONVER TO JUDAISM IN THE 8 CENTURY.I MYSELF ARE THEIR DESCENDANT AND I LIVE IN ISRAEL. WE ARE ETHNIC TURKS AND KEEP JEWISH RELIGION.AND PROUD IN OUR ANCESTORS.

Shalom Khazari,

I have what may amount to be a stupid question: How do you know you are descended from the Khazars? Have you traced your ancestry back 1,000 years to the Khazar Khanate? If so, I am truly in awe, since I can only trace my family back at most 160 years to a David Löewy of Prague.

As an Ashkenazi-Jewish professional oud player who loves Ottoman Classical Music and raging Turkophile, I would love to believe that I have significant Turkic ancestry, but there is no evidence for this.

I think the paragraph from the Wikipedia article sums it up well:

"The theory that the majority of Ashkenazic Jews are the descendants of the non-Semitic converted Khazars was advocated by various Revisionist History and otherwise Antisemitic circles towards the end of the 20th century, especially following the publication of Arthur Koestler's “The Thirteenth Tribe.” Since Ashkenazi Jews make up the majority of world Jewry, such speculation is often held in conjunction with the belief that modern day Jews are not the true descendants of the Ancient Israelites, and that contemporary Jewry has no rightful claim to the land of the State of Israel. This thesis is usually advanced in the context of the political conflict between Israel and Palestinians to promote Muslim claims to Israeli territory. Despite recent contrary genetic evidence[10], and a lack of any real mainstream scholarly support, this belief is still popular among groups such as the Christian Identity Movement, Black Hebrews, British Israelitists and others who claim that they are the descendants of Israel instead of the Jews and seek to downplay the connection between the Jewish people and their Israelite ancestors."

A good, scholarly review of Koestler's book is Wieseltier, Leon. "You Don't Have to Be Khazarian: The Thirteenth Tribe," by Arthur Koestler. New York Review of Books (October 28, 1976): 33-36 (You can read the introduction and buy it here for $3: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/article-pr...rticle_id=8698). I think this article is otherwise hard to find, but if I can find my old copy, I will try to find a way to scan and post it.

Kol tuv,
John

[KHAZARI]

Shalom Khazari,

I have what may amount to be a stupid question: How do you know you are descended from the Khazars? Have you traced your ancestry back 1,000 years to the Khazar Khanate? If so, I am truly in awe, since I can only trace my family back at most 160 years to a David Löewy of Prague.

As an Ashkenazi-Jewish professional oud player who loves Ottoman Classical Music and raging Turkophile, I would love to believe that I have significant Turkic ancestry, but there is no evidence for this.

I think the paragraph from the Wikipedia article sums it up well:

"The theory that the majority of Ashkenazic Jews are the descendants of the non-Semitic converted Khazars was advocated by various Revisionist History and otherwise Antisemitic circles towards the end of the 20th century, especially following the publication of Arthur Koestler's “The Thirteenth Tribe.” Since Ashkenazi Jews make up the majority of world Jewry, such speculation is often held in conjunction with the belief that modern day Jews are not the true descendants of the Ancient Israelites, and that contemporary Jewry has no rightful claim to the land of the State of Israel. This thesis is usually advanced in the context of the political conflict between Israel and Palestinians to promote Muslim claims to Israeli territory. Despite recent contrary genetic evidence[10], and a lack of any real mainstream scholarly support, this belief is still popular among groups such as the Christian Identity Movement, Black Hebrews, British Israelitists and others who claim that they are the descendants of Israel instead of the Jews and seek to downplay the connection between the Jewish people and their Israelite ancestors."

A good, scholarly review of Koestler's book is Wieseltier, Leon. "You Don't Have to Be Khazarian: The Thirteenth Tribe," by Arthur Koestler. New York Review of Books (October 28, 1976): 33-36 (You can read the introduction and buy it here for $3: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/article-pr...rticle_id=8698). I think this article is otherwise hard to find, but if I can find my old copy, I will try to find a way to scan and post it.

Kol tuv,
John

SHALOM UDI I BELONG TO TURKIC COMMUNITY QARAYLAR WHO ORIGINALY FROM CRIMEA THE RESEARCH ANTHROPOLOGY PHILOLOGY AND CULTURALLY PROVED WHO WE ARE THE HEIR OF THE KHAZARS AND WE ARE VERY PROUD THIS. I DONT THIK WHO THE ASHKENAZAI JEWS ARE DESCENDED FROM THE KHAZAR BUT SOME ASHKENAZAI JEWS HAVE TURKISH NAME LIKE:KAPLAN ,KAGAN ....
THE ASHKENAZI JEWS ARE JEWS WHO WAS SUBJECT IN KHAZAR EMPIRE .AFTER TO COLLAPSE THE KHAZAR KHAGANAT THEY MOVED TO EASTREN EUROPE AND LATER TO ALL EUROPE AND BLEND WITH LOCAL EUROPEAN. YOU ALSO INVITED TO VISIT IN TURKEY SECTION I POST THERE ARTICLE AND SOME PIC.HOW YOU START TO INTERESTING IN CLASICAL OTTOMAN MUSIC? WHEN YOU LISTEN TO THIS MUSIC FIRST ?

KOL TUV TO YOU TO

AND I HOPE WHO THE JEWS IN THE WORLD CONTINU KEEP RELATIONSHIP WITH TURKISH PEOPLE

GREETING

[Udi John]

SHALOM UDI I BELONG TO TURKIC COMMUNITY QARAYLAR WHO ORIGINALY FROM CRIMEA

Wow! I knew that there are Egyptian-Jewish Karaites (what we call them in English) in Israel, but I didn't know about the Crimean ones being in Israel. I remember hearing the story (possibly apocryphal?) of a Jewish scholar in Europe that the Nazis forced to write a paper about the origin of the Crimean Karaites. This scholar actually perjured himself (lied) because he didn't want the Nazis to kill them. He always believed that the Crimean Karaites were descended from Hebrews (like other Jews), but lied and said he believed they were not of Hebrew ancestry at all (Khazar, or whatever). The scholar eventually died in Auschwitz.

HOW YOU START TO INTERESTING IN CLASICAL OTTOMAN MUSIC? WHEN YOU LISTEN TO THIS MUSIC FIRST ?

I was first exposed to Ottoman Classical music at the Mendocino Middle East Music and Dance camp in California. I was already learning to play Arabic-style oud. I studied with Necati Çelik and heard him perform with kanoun master Halil Karaduman. Turkish Classical musicians typically have the highest technical skills of any musicians in the Near East (although I respond more strongly on an emotional level to Arabic Classical Music). (See Turkish ud master Yurdal Tokcan performing at the Oud Festival in Oman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igYSqwzZT_k...feature=related ) (By the way, Yurdal is an acquaintance of mine, a friendly guy, and visits Israel fairly regularly to teach and perform. I highly recommend going to hear him play!)

Peace,
John

[KHAZARI]

WELL MY FRIEND ACTUALLY THE KARAITES ARE DIVISED TO TWO GROUPS CRIMEAN KARAITES WHO ARE TURKS AND EGYPTIAN KARAITES WHO ARE JEWS. THIS STORY ABOUT THE WW2 NOT REALY TRUTH.THE NAZI CHECK RESEARCH WHO MADE RUSSIAN ANTHROPOLOGS WHO PROVED WHO WE ARE FROM KHAZAR ORIGIN . THE CRIMEAN KARAITES WAS ALWAYS GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH THE CRIMEAN TATARS WHO ARE MUSLIMS TURKS AND SOME CRIMEAN TATARS PROFESSORS AND INTELLECTUALS BRING TO NAZI OPINION WHO DETERMINE WHO THE CRIMEAN KARAITES ARE FROM KHAZAR-TURKISH ORIGIN.WE ARE TURKS AND ALL THE TURKIC WORLD ACCEPT THIS. YES I KNOW IN ISRAEL SOME EGYPTIAN KARAITES JEWS WE HAVE RELIGIONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH THEY .

THIS STORY ABOUT THE JEWISH PROFESSOR NOT TRUTH.. THE NAZI ATTITUDE TOWARDS THE QARAYLAR ARE SYMPATHETIC AND THEY LET US OPEN OUR KENASAS(SYNAGOGUE) AND THE QARAYLAR ARE NO KILLED.SOME QARAY SAVE JEWISH FROM THE NAZI IN WW2 .YES HAVE IN ISRAEL COMMUNITY OF CRIMEAN KARAITES MOST OF THEY IMMIGRATE AFTER COLLAPSE SOVIET UNION AND ONLY FEW LIKE ME ARE KARAITES FROM CRIMEAN ORIGIN WHO THEY ANCESTORS MIGRATE FROM ISTANBUL.


AND SERIOUSNESS I HOPE WHO AMERICAN JEWS ALWAYS REMEMBER THE LONG GOOD RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TURKS AND JEWS FROM THE FIRST MEETING BETWEEN KHAZARS AND JEWS UNTIL MODERN TURKEY WHO TURKEY SAVE JEWISH PEOPLE WHO HAVE TURKISH CITIZEN FROM THE NAZI.

AND TURKEY ARE THE ONLY MUSLIM COUNTRY WHO THE JEWS LIVE IN PEACE AND NO BE PERSECUTED.
GREETIN
KOL TUV
SHABAT SHALOM

[Udi John]

Shabbat Shalom, Khazari
-JE

[KHAZARI]

WELL MY FRIEND TURKEY AND ISRAEL HAVE GOOD RELATIONSHIP VERY LONG TIME.DAVID BEN GURION THE FIRST PRIME-MINISTER LEARN IN ISTANBUL AND SERVED IN OTTOMAN ARMY HIM EVEN KNOW SPEAK TURKISH! HIM TOLD WHO HIM KNOW THE QARZALAR AND WHO THEY ARE HIM FRIEND IN POLAND.
AFTER WHO ISRAEL STATE BE ERECTED TURKEY WAS ONE OF THE FIRST STATES WHO MAKE WITH ISRAEL DIPLOMATIC RELATIONSHIP.THE ISRAELI ARMY AND THE TURKISH ARMY VERY CLOSE AND MAKE TRAINING TOGETHER.MANY ISRAELI TOURIST GO TO TURKEY WHO ARE VERY POPULAR IN ISRAEL.
TURKISH MUSIC POPULAR ALSO IN ISRAEL AND MANY ISRAELI PEOPLE LOVE THIS MUSIC ALTHOUGH THEY NOT UNDERSTAND THE LANGUAGE.

[Dîrî]

@KHAZARI

Could you PLEASE cut out the CAPS? Do you have to write in all-capital letters?

And it's realy paradoxal that you are here trying to bring Turkey and Israel closer together - when the Turkish people are drifiting FAR away from Israel and have been the last 2 decades...

When in Turkey last summer - I saw posters advocating Israel to get out of Palestine and for Turks to stop Palestinian children from crying (in e.g.: HELP THEM)...



Very different from the image you are trying to give here...

[Jaff Sassani]

Khazari

The Islamic political party of Turkey is the power today in Turkey.
Prime Minister: Recep Tayyip Erdogan and his assistance President Abdullah Gül.

The reason the President is assistance to Prime Minister is very clear; the real planer and decision maker is Mr. Erdogan. The Islamic party under Mr. Erdogan does not have any plan to join European union, you can call him Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran if you like.

The Government of Turkey want to eliminate military power with in Turkey, then you will see Turkey will be much hostile than Iran toward Western country, USA and Israel.

Day after day the Islamic party getting strong, their ideology are equal but Turkey doing different way, both man are very close to Saudi Arabia royal family and get help financially to run the party. They have secret agenda it is not surprising the such high percentage of people in Turkey hate west now since the establishment of Islamic Government in Turkey.

The saying that Turkey is friend of Israel, are in the past not in the future any more.

WELL MY FRIEND TURKEY AND ISRAEL HAVE GOOD RELATIONSHIP VERY LONG TIME.DAVID BEN GURION THE FIRST PRIME-MINISTER LEARN IN ISTANBUL AND SERVED IN OTTOMAN ARMY HIM EVEN KNOW SPEAK TURKISH! HIM TOLD WHO HIM KNOW THE QARZALAR AND WHO THEY ARE HIM FRIEND IN POLAND.
AFTER WHO ISRAEL STATE BE ERECTED TURKEY WAS ONE OF THE FIRST STATES WHO MAKE WITH ISRAEL DIPLOMATIC RELATIONSHIP.THE ISRAELI ARMY AND THE TURKISH ARMY VERY CLOSE AND MAKE TRAINING TOGETHER.MANY ISRAELI TOURIST GO TO TURKEY WHO ARE VERY POPULAR IN ISRAEL.
TURKISH MUSIC POPULAR ALSO IN ISRAEL AND MANY ISRAELI PEOPLE LOVE THIS MUSIC ALTHOUGH THEY NOT UNDERSTAND THE LANGUAGE.

[KHAZARI]

Khazari

The Islamic political party of Turkey is the power today in Turkey.
Prime Minister: Recep Tayyip Erdogan and his assistance President Abdullah Gül.

The reason the President is assistance to Prime Minister is very clear; the real planer and decision maker is Mr. Erdogan. The Islamic party under Mr. Erdogan does not have any plan to join European union, you can call him Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran if you like.

The Government of Turkey want to eliminate military power with in Turkey, then you will see Turkey will be much hostile than Iran toward Western country, USA and Israel.

Day after day the Islamic party getting strong, their ideology are equal but Turkey doing different way, both man are very close to Saudi Arabia royal family and get help financially to run the party. They have secret agenda it is not surprising the such high percentage of people in Turkey hate west now since the establishment of Islamic Government in Turkey.

The saying that Turkey is friend of Israel, are in the past not in the future any more.

ok erdogan are fanatic islamist everybody know this.the turkish army watching about him and mybe the army do revolution in the future like who him do in the past.yes in the past israel and turkiye was more cloder and the radically islam getting strong since i agree.but i dont think who turkiye will become like iran.
the turkish army strong.

[Dîrî]

@Khazari

If the Turkish military does another coup - then you will see Turkey be divided into at LEAST 3 parts...


Secularist Turks

Islamist Turks

&

Kurds - who will work with the Islamist Turks to make sure that the Turkish military loses the battle for good...

Is that something you want to see? Or do you want to see a successful Turkey? In which case, you should advocate freedoms, liberties and reforms...

No matter how paranoid some Turks are in regards to AKP - they have to understand: AKP is a democratic Islamic movement which as long as respected will never become another "Islamic Republic of Iran"

[arrow]

@Khazari

If the Turkish military does another coup - then you will see Turkey be divided into at LEAST 3 parts...
Secularist Turks

Islamist Turks

&

Kurds - who will work with the Islamist Turks to make sure that the Turkish military loses the battle for good...

You dream a lot. What is the basis of your arguments ?

[KHAZARI]

yes i know who many kurds support in erdogan party maybe this the reasons why him so soft with the pkk...

anyway turkiye more stronger from what who you think.the sick man on the bosporus this how the european call the ottoman empire and try divide turkiye because they think who the turks are weak...what happend in the end every body know...you can ask the greeks

[Dîrî]

yes i know who many kurds support in erdogan party maybe this the reasons why him so soft with the pkk...

anyway turkiye more stronger from what who you think.the sick man on the bosporus this how the european call the ottoman empire and try divide turkiye because they think who the turks are weak...what happend in the end every body know...you can ask the greeks

Kurds support reform... Not AKP... It just so happens to be AKP bringing reforms...

[Dîrî]

You dream a lot. What is the basis of your arguments ?

I dream?

What is it now...? What's wrong? Have I said something totally balooba?

Turkey has three oppositional groups: Islamist Turks, Kemalist Turks and Kurds... These are all polar to eachother - some more than others...

[KHAZARI]

YES ERDOGAN BAD FOR THE TURKS...TURKIYE NEED UNFIT HIM PARTY AND PUT HIM IN THE JAIL.IF ATATURK WAS IN THE LIVE I THINK WHO HIM WAS GIVE HIM A SLAP ON HIM FACE....

[arrow]

I dream?

What is it now...? What's wrong? Have I said something totally balooba?

Turkey has three oppositional groups: Islamist Turks, Kemalist Turks and Kurds... These are all polar to eachother - some more than others...

1-Islamist Turks as you put it were more fundemental in 60ies and the coup then didn't divide Turkiye.

2- Secular Turks , as you put it , have no desire to divide the state.

3- Kurds voted for AKP, if the marginal Kurds could divide Turkiye they would have done it already.

And AKP supporters, CHP supporters are not polar to each other, when it comes to national matters they are pretty much united.

[Dîrî]

1-Islamist Turks as you put it were more fundemental in 60ies and the coup then didn't divide Turkiye.

2- Secular Turks , as you put it , have no desire to divide the state.

3- Kurds voted for AKP, if the marginal Kurds could divide Turkiye they would have done it already.

And AKP supporters, CHP supporters are not polar to each other, when it comes to national matters they are pretty much united.

Oh I see - THAT'S your problem...

You thought I said "divide" as in GEOPOLITICALLY...

Don't worry... Read what I said and you'll see what I realy meant - not what your paranoid mind wanted to see...

[arrow]

OK I will give you the benefit of doubt..

Please explain me what I understtod wrong in this sentence of yours.

If the Turkish military does another coup - then you will see Turkey be divided into at LEAST 3 parts...

[Dîrî]

OK I will give you the benefit of doubt..

Please explain me what I understtod wrong in this sentence of yours.

If the Turkish military does another coup - then you will see Turkey be divided into at LEAST 3 parts...

No problem... And thank you!

You thought I meant to that Turkey will be divided into three geo-political entities - wheras I meant political entities...

And they are well shaped/formed already - although not completely - but a coup would just make the forming complete... Because as things are now: Islamists, Kemalists and Kurds are working together - but if a coup should happen, the Islamists and Kurds will oppose that and that is how Turkey will be divided into three parts... So you'll have three political fronts...

Hope that was clear...