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Chaldeans Proudly Waiving Assyrian Flags In Atra
Chaldean
post 05/04/08 08:28 AM
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In a Jana Sawa concert - another great Chaldean Catholic who admires his Assyrian roots. Check out the rest of hte pics at;

http://www.ankawa.com/forum/index.php/topi...html#msg3143736
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Rumtaya
post 05/04/08 10:23 AM
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Yeah I saw it in Ishtar TV, seemd very interesting. It was in the village of Feyshkhabour at the borderside of Iraq and Syria in the Nohadra (Dohuk) Governarate.

Thanks for the link, so much for the claims that chaldeans want to be their own thing, keep on waving ASSYRIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

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Sanharib
post 05/04/08 10:54 AM
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yeah great, didn't expect to see this on Aghajan TV^^
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Rumtaya
post 05/04/08 11:17 AM
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QUOTE(Sanharib @ 05/04/08 06:54 PM) [snapback]122125[/snapback]
yeah great, didn't expect to see this on Aghajan TV^^



They show always such events, as long as its not done by ADM. Its kinda propaganda for Aghajan, but hey let them wave the Assyrian Flags, people should take what is offerd, but should not sell themselves icon_mrgreen.gif

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Dīrī
post 05/04/08 01:23 PM
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Nice Kurdish clothes they are wearing... icon_smile.gif
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Rumtaya
post 05/04/08 01:57 PM
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QUOTE(Dīrī @ 05/04/08 09:23 PM) [snapback]122128[/snapback]
Nice Kurdish clothes they are wearing... icon_smile.gif


Yeah you know the Assyrian Empire was big, and everyone was intergrated back then..., we brought culture to people and shared culture with them icon_mrgreen.gif.

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Chaldean
post 05/04/08 09:59 PM
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QUOTE(Dīrī @ 05/04/08 03:23 PM) [snapback]122128[/snapback]
Nice Kurdish clothes they are wearing... icon_smile.gif


If your trying to be funny, it didn't work. If you were serious, you should stop for a second and realize that the area shares a common culture, where NOBODY owns a certian kind of clothes. They are MOUNTIAN CLOTHES, not Kurdish clothes. When Armenians lived in the area back in the days, they too also wore the clothes.
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Dīrī
post 05/05/08 10:34 AM
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QUOTE(Chaldean @ 05/04/08 10:59 PM) [snapback]122143[/snapback]
If your trying to be funny, it didn't work. If you were serious, you should stop for a second and realize that the area shares a common culture, where NOBODY owns a certian kind of clothes. They are MOUNTIAN CLOTHES, not Kurdish clothes. When Armenians lived in the area back in the days, they too also wore the clothes.



LOL icon_lol.gif


"There are no "Kurds", they are Mountain Turks"... Sounds familiar?

Give it up...

You know it really hurts you deep inside to know that you are using Kurdish clothes etc...


Hey buddy - don't give me lessons unless you have proof... Armenians never worse such clothes. Armenian traditional clothes are akin to other Caucasian clothes...

The proof that those are Kurdish clothes = Kurds wear those clothes from Dehloran in South-East Kurdistan to Dersīm in North-West Kurdistan...

Assyrians have lived among Kurds for centuries - and have borrowed a lot of cultural traits... If you're going to DENY that, then I suggest you have a reality check...

In most cases, Assyrians tried to fit in with the Kurds to not be "out of place" - like when they moved to Colemźrg (Hakkari province) and settled down side by side with Kurds there...

If you don't like me calling it "Kurdish" then that's your problem... I know it hurts your stomach to hear those words because that goes against your belief that Kurds are invading barbars from China... icon_lol.gif

Anyway - you should just live with it...

OR you can do like these Assyrians do - and go back to your "roots":






Those are your clothes if any at all...
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Chaldean
post 05/05/08 11:10 AM
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Retard, know that Assyrians have a very large variability among them, where different sects where different clothes. You acting like a turd and putting words in my mouth by saying I said Mountians Turks isn't really going to effect me, but rather make you look silly in front of the public eye. They are mountain clothes - baggy clothes, so that it would be easier to mobile around the villages. NOTE to your self; "Medes" or "Hurrian" or whatever you claim ancestry didn't wear the clothes your wearing today.

You want to talk about infuenced by other people, Kurds are a perfect example of a Assyrian/Armenian/Turk/Arab/Persian hybrid. Everything that is related to you is rooted in other people. Don't be shy of it thou...
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Dīrī
post 05/05/08 11:54 AM
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QUOTE(Chaldean @ 05/05/08 12:10 PM) [snapback]122154[/snapback]
Retard, know that Assyrians have a very large variability among them, where different sects where different clothes. You acting like a turd and putting words in my mouth by saying I said Mountians Turks isn't really going to effect me, but rather make you look silly in front of the public eye. They are mountain clothes - baggy clothes, so that it would be easier to mobile around the villages. NOTE to your self; "Medes" or "Hurrian" or whatever you claim ancestry didn't wear the clothes your wearing today.

You want to talk about infuenced by other people, Kurds are a perfect example of a Assyrian/Armenian/Turk/Arab/Persian hybrid. Everything that is related to you is rooted in other people. Don't be shy of it thou...



You know what the difference between you and I is?

I am man enough to see things as they are and accept them... If something is Assyrian, I will not try to deny it with this or that hear say story... And I'm very proud of belonging to a tolerant, pluralist people who thrive on diversity instead of feel shame of it...

You on the other hand obviously are ashamed of not being a "pure Assyrian" this or that...

And I don't need to look 2600 years back in time to find myself... I'm right here and right now... And Kurds wear those clothes in all parts of Kurdistan... While there are loads upon loads of Assyrians who never wore those clothes... The fact is that Assyrians dress as Arabs when they go to Baghdad or Basrah and that they dress like Kurds when they go to Duhok or Hewlźr...

Why is that so hard to accept?

And I'm really sorry for you... You sunk very low when you started swearing... Try to avoid swearing... It'll make your arguments come clearer + you'll come off as slightly more level headed and sophisticated too... Trust me... icon_wink.gif
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Rumtaya
post 05/05/08 12:42 PM
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Easy down guys, please no insults keep it clean!

My friend Diri, Arabs in Syria wear those things too. Its probably a regional thing more then its a culture. However we all know people learn from eachother adopt some things.

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Dīrī
post 05/05/08 01:53 PM
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QUOTE(Rumtaya @ 05/05/08 01:42 PM) [snapback]122157[/snapback]
Easy down guys, please no insults keep it clean!

My friend Diri, Arabs in Syria wear those things too. Its probably a regional thing more then its a culture. However we all know people learn from eachother adopt some things.



Yes, I know - but it is no secret that thanks to Selaheddīn, Kurdish culture spread far and wide, high and low...


Many Assyrians try to press the point that Kurds don't belong... Well the truth is Sumerian sources from 3-4000 BC mention the Kurds...

So there's really no point in pretending to be stupid... We all have access to the internet, obviously - so we can all read internet sources instead of echoing the same myths that people have echoed for centuries now...

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Sanharib
post 05/05/08 02:00 PM
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I don't know if these clothes are kurdish influenced or regional influenced, but what I know is that this hat that this guy is wearing is 100 % Assyrian:



http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/561/soldiersv2.jpg



http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4081/nestoassyrzo7.jpg


The picture above was drawn by Henry Layard in 1845. It shows an example of the Nestorian Assyrian men who worked for him during his archaeological digging. It also shows what their women wore.

Note the similarity of the workers' hats with the helmets the Assyrian soldier wore as shown on an ancien relief on the right. One has to take into account the 2500 years of time between the two pictures and that metal can be molded in perfect shape but felt which the workers hats were made up can not.

None of their neighbors, Kurds, Arabs, Turks, or Persians wore such hat.

The colors of the clothing were generated with computer and are not the original hues of the attires.
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Sanharib
post 05/05/08 02:06 PM
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I don't know if these clothes are kurdish influenced or regional influenced, but what I know is that this hat that this guy is wearing is 100 % Assyrian:











The picture above was drawn by Henry Layard in 1845. It shows an example of the Nestorian Assyrian men who worked for him during his archaeological digging. It also shows what their women wore.

Note the similarity of the workers' hats with the helmets the Assyrian soldier wore as shown on an ancien relief on the right. One has to take into account the 2500 years of time between the two pictures and that metal can be molded in perfect shape but felt which the workers hats were made up can not.

None of their neighbors, Kurds, Arabs, Turks, or Persians wore such hat.

The colors of the clothing were generated with computer and are not the original hues of the attires.
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Dīrī
post 05/05/08 03:38 PM
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Thank you, Sanharib, for sharing that... icon_smile.gif


It seems likely that the source of that design indeed was Ancient Assyrian...


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Rumtaya
post 05/05/08 03:48 PM
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QUOTE(Dīrī @ 05/05/08 09:53 PM) [snapback]122160[/snapback]
Yes, I know - but it is no secret that thanks to Selaheddīn, Kurdish culture spread far and wide, high and low...
Many Assyrians try to press the point that Kurds don't belong... Well the truth is Sumerian sources from 3-4000 BC mention the Kurds...

So there's really no point in pretending to be stupid... We all have access to the internet, obviously - so we can all read internet sources instead of echoing the same myths that people have echoed for centuries now...



Yes my brother, the Kurti or Gutium have been mentioned by the Sumerians, but if you stick to that, you also have to say that Kurds increased their terrtories especially in he last 800 years, because the Sumerians descibe those people as inhabitour of the mountain areas in todays SE Turkey and of course the Zagros mountains, just as Assyrians have mentioned those people beeing north of Assyria (means above nohadra area).

That just to history.
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Chaldean
post 05/05/08 08:13 PM
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QUOTE(Dīrī @ 05/05/08 01:54 PM) [snapback]122155[/snapback]
If something is Assyrian, I will not try to deny it with this or that hear say story...


This is your problem right here. You think you know what Assyrian is, but you have NO idea. What you think is "Assyrian clothes" is only that of Nestorians of Tyari, Baz, and Jelu tribes. The brown-white stripe clothes in that first picture I show is Alqoshi - Catholic Assyrians from Alqosh have been wearing these types of clothes before Kurds even arrived in the land. Assyrians in Nineveh Plains (Catholic Chaldeans) never have word what you think is "Assyrian clothes". They have their own tribal clothes, some of which has been adopted by migrating Kurds. And today, you think of it as "Kurdish clothes." Assyrians of Syriac Orthodox faith in Syria wear something different from what you think is "Assyrian clothes as well.

QUOTE
And I don't need to look 2600 years back in time to find myself... I'm right here and right now... And Kurds wear those clothes in all parts of Kurdistan... While there are loads upon loads of Assyrians who never wore those clothes... The fact is that Assyrians dress as Arabs when they go to Baghdad or Basrah and that they dress like Kurds when they go to Duhok or Hewlźr...


And when Kurds migrate to Norway or the US, do they wear they original clothes? Of course not, get your arguments straight before you present them. Know this; Assyrians have been wearing what you think is"Kurdish" in Nohadra and Arbil way before Kurds even stepped their foot in these lands.

QUOTE
And I'm really sorry for you... You sunk very low when you started swearing... Try to avoid swearing... It'll make your arguments come clearer + you'll come off as slightly more level headed and sophisticated too... Trust me... icon_wink.gif


Please don't think for a second your above me.
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Dīrī
post 05/06/08 02:36 AM
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QUOTE(Chaldean @ 05/05/08 09:13 PM) [snapback]122177[/snapback]
This is your problem right here. You think you know what Assyrian is, but you have NO idea. What you think is "Assyrian clothes" is only that of Nestorians of Tyari, Baz, and Jelu tribes. The brown-white stripe clothes in that first picture I show is Alqoshi - Catholic Assyrians from Alqosh have been wearing these types of clothes before Kurds even arrived in the land. Assyrians in Nineveh Plains (Catholic Chaldeans) never have word what you think is "Assyrian clothes". They have their own tribal clothes, some of which has been adopted by migrating Kurds. And today, you think of it as "Kurdish clothes." Assyrians of Syriac Orthodox faith in Syria wear something different from what you think is "Assyrian clothes as well.
And when Kurds migrate to Norway or the US, do they wear they original clothes? Of course not, get your arguments straight before you present them. Know this; Assyrians have been wearing what you think is"Kurdish" in Nohadra and Arbil way before Kurds even stepped their foot in these lands.
Please don't think for a second your above me.




icon_lol.gif

Kurds and Assyrians lived mixed in the Central Kurdistan area... Not in South-Eastern Kurdistan - in Dehloran and NOT in North-Western Kurdistan in Dersīm... BUT Kurds wear these clothes no matter WHERE they are... While Assyrians wear them depending on where they are - or where they are from...


You don't want to see that... Fine with me... The truth is you're the minority in those lands, not Kurds...

And as far as Kurds in the Diaspora go - we wear our clothes no matter where we are, dear friend...


We certainly don't wear the national clothes of the host countries we live in (in the diaspora)...

But we do wear our own clothes for Kurdish events - parties, seminars, demonstrations/protests etc...


To try to say that is wrong, is really ignorant of you... But oh well... We'll just have to live with your ignorance too...


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Dīrī
post 05/06/08 02:41 AM
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QUOTE(Rumtaya @ 05/05/08 04:48 PM) [snapback]122167[/snapback]
Yes my brother, the Kurti or Gutium have been mentioned by the Sumerians, but if you stick to that, you also have to say that Kurds increased their terrtories especially in he last 800 years, because the Sumerians descibe those people as inhabitour of the mountain areas in todays SE Turkey and of course the Zagros mountains, just as Assyrians have mentioned those people beeing north of Assyria (means above nohadra area).

That just to history.



Last 800 years???


The Hurrians were well established all over the Kurdish mountains before Assyrians came from Babylon...

Then the Medes conquered the Assyrians together with the Babylonians - and we've had a strong presence in northern Mesopotamia ever since that day in 612 BC...

If you want to tell me "Hurrians and Medes were not Kurdish" then the argument for "Ancient Assyrians are not related to Assyrians of today" is just as strong...

And why do you say the last 800 years?

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Rumtaya
post 05/06/08 08:18 AM
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QUOTE(Dīrī @ 05/06/08 10:41 AM) [snapback]122187[/snapback]
Last 800 years???
The Hurrians were well established all over the Kurdish mountains before Assyrians came from Babylon...

Then the Medes conquered the Assyrians together with the Babylonians - and we've had a strong presence in northern Mesopotamia ever since that day in 612 BC...

If you want to tell me "Hurrians and Medes were not Kurdish" then the argument for "Ancient Assyrians are not related to Assyrians of today" is just as strong...

And why do you say the last 800 years?



Forget the things with hurrians,gutians,medes for one second.
I was reffering to the mention of Kurdistan, as a name, because I never saw or read any mention of "Kurdistan", before 1200 AD.

However, you just mentioned now Assyrians moved from babylon. That is so not right, because Assyrians are Assyrians and they have been in todays Northern Iraq long before the etablishment of the babylonian Kingdom, since Ashur the city and its sourouding areas reffers to the land of Ashur i.e. Assyrian Homeland.

Well, you have many things speaking for Assyrians to be the descent of those Assyrians back then, probably you also have realized that Assyrians are not a pure ethnic group, since youll see Assyrians with blue eyes, brown eyes...brown hair, dark hair...small eyes big eyes, small noses big noses etc.

But when you mention all those groups beeing forfathers of Kurds, you probably should aslo consider that Assyrians have also some of those people within their nation. Since Assyria was more a Nation then an ethnic group.

Now my dear friend not to insult you or make you mad, since everye nation has its right to statehood or selfdertemation, but you can easily connect the name "suraye" to "assuraye", can you do that with Kurds/Kurdistan to "Hurria, Urartia, Gutium, Media etc."?

You could look up for the maps, where the Hurrian "homeland" not Empire lied, where the Median Homeland, not Empire lied, the same with gutians and others of those beeing referd as kurdish ancorsts, but probably dear kak diri, you should give Northern Iraq a visit and see which sculptres, historic sites etc. dominate that area.

Something more, you said "the meds conguerd together with babylonians Assyria", well they did conquer it and the Assyrian Empire cam to it extinction, but that doesnt mean that there were thousands and thousands of meds invading the Assyrian Heartland and settling down there.

The Persian Empire strenght till Greek, does that mean thousands and thousands of Persians settle down in Greek?

Probably over the time there were some Medians who settled into the Assyrian Heartland, but you can tell that this area has been "Assyrian" or lets say "semitic christian" populated till the rise of Islam or better said till some Arab Tribes went up to the kurdish mountains to islamize those people, who then would go depper and depper into Assyrian Christian Areas (Northern Iraq, exluding suleimani and parts of arbil province).

I also should admit that you probably would have Kurds becoming Christian, but since Zoorastrims was the main Iranian Belive, I would doubt that there was a huge number of "Kurdish Christians" back then.


But my friend as I said no offend towards you and Kurdistan. I respect your call out for statehood and freedom, since everyone should benefit from beeing independent and gettin ride from opression, however you should just look for the Facts, that Kurds and Kurdistan has heavily increase its population along its area within the last hundred of years and especially in the last century.

You should just think about it and as you said your mother site is of Assyrian roots, now imagine how many have faced the same faith under the opression of islam and the ongoing "kurdification", arabification, turkification.


@ at topic, guys dont be so rude to eachother we all can discuss things without becoming personal.
THANKS!!!
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Danno
post 05/06/08 04:58 PM
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Listen Diri...yes we have very similar clothing...but how can u say that is was originally "kurdish" clothing...i mean im a reasonable guy and i would accept it if its true...but ur claim has been that Assyrian clothing are very similar to kurdish clothing, therefore Assyrians copied kurds. Also u say that we went to Hakkari and adopted them...what u dont realize is before we fled to Hakkari in the 13th cen. there was still a large Assyrian population in Hakkari (i can easily say that our clothing is based on theirs but im not cause i would be gessing [which is what ur doing]). Kurds came to Hakkari later...at this point they were sill concintrated in N.W. Persia and came to Hakkari during the late 16th-17th cen. by Persian and Turkish interventions. So that claim of yours is gone.

You also said that "these" are our true clothing and showed pics of ancient Assyrian clothing...this makes no sense b/c if u use that analogy then your traditonal clothing would be clothing of ancient medes (even though its disputed that kurds are thier decendents) etc.

Now some say that today's Assyrian clothing relates to the clothing worn by ancient Assyrians...if this is ture and if we continued wearing these clothing for 1500 years+ and kurdish clothing is similar to Assyrian clothing then that would mean kurds adopted Assyrian clothing [but i dont believe this b.c there isnt solid evidece for this].

What we know is that all these tradtional clothings have influenced each other:


http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http...ants.jpg/300px-
Assyrian Soldier WWI

http://www.pdphotoblog.com/pics/kurdish-chieft.jpg
Kurd

turkish

syrian

p.s. sry for some reason they didnt alow me to do tie images
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Israelite_
post 05/06/08 06:57 PM
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* In the home page of the following link there is an image of a Kurdish man wearing this kurdish rag over his head, identical to the one worn by the Assyrians in the photo Diri claim the clothe is Kurdish.

http://www.kurdishjewry.org.il/

* In the same home page there is a simple menu on the left. Click the sixth item from above and arrive at a page where you can see Kurish Jews are wearing gowns similar to those claimed as Kurdish by Diri.

* The following is a link to a page from a book written 167 years ago by a Christian missionary where he says that "families of Jews in the place, who cannot be distinguished by their appearance or language from the Nestorians; and so complete was the deception, ..." So I tend to agree with Chaldean that those clothes are typical of mountainous folks rather than Kurdish ones.

http://books.google.co.il/books?id=uHL1WaN...ad=2_0#PPA46,M1
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Dīrī
post 05/10/08 09:26 AM
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QUOTE(Danno @ 05/06/08 05:58 PM) [snapback]122230[/snapback]
Listen Diri...yes we have very similar clothing...but how can u say that is was originally "kurdish" clothing...i mean im a reasonable guy and i would accept it if its true...but ur claim has been that Assyrian clothing are very similar to kurdish clothing, therefore Assyrians copied kurds. Also u say that we went to Hakkari and adopted them...what u dont realize is before we fled to Hakkari in the 13th cen. there was still a large Assyrian population in Hakkari (i can easily say that our clothing is based on theirs but im not cause i would be gessing [which is what ur doing]). Kurds came to Hakkari later...at this point they were sill concintrated in N.W. Persia and came to Hakkari during the late 16th-17th cen. by Persian and Turkish interventions. So that claim of yours is gone.

You also said that "these" are our true clothing and showed pics of ancient Assyrian clothing...this makes no sense b/c if u use that analogy then your traditonal clothing would be clothing of ancient medes (even though its disputed that kurds are thier decendents) etc.

Now some say that today's Assyrian clothing relates to the clothing worn by ancient Assyrians...if this is ture and if we continued wearing these clothing for 1500 years+ and kurdish clothing is similar to Assyrian clothing then that would mean kurds adopted Assyrian clothing [but i dont believe this b.c there isnt solid evidece for this].

What we know is that all these tradtional clothings have influenced each other:
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http...ants.jpg/300px-
Assyrian Soldier WWI

http://www.pdphotoblog.com/pics/kurdish-chieft.jpg
Kurd

turkish

syrian

p.s. sry for some reason they didnt alow me to do tie images



I don't have time now for long replies - but this nonesense about Kurds having migrated from Iran to Colemźrg ("Hakkari") and the REST of NORTH KURDISTAN - is RUBBISH...

And I find this kind of NONESENSE to be VERY VERY VERY offensive...

And it angers me to read such things - BASELESS as they are...

Arabic sources from the Islamic conquest speak of Bilad al-Akrad in 700 AD... Then HOW THE HELL do you prove that Kurds came to Colemźrg during LATE 16th-17th century?



I'm not gonna reply to such nonesense in the future...

And I'm definetly not gonna reply to long or short posts - as long as they aim at delegitimizing Kurdish presence with "we are natives" rubbish...

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Rumtaya
post 05/10/08 09:38 AM
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QUOTE(Dīrī @ 05/10/08 05:26 PM) [snapback]122341[/snapback]
I don't have time now for long replies - but this nonesense about Kurds having migrated from Iran to Colemźrg ("Hakkari") and the REST of NORTH KURDISTAN - is RUBBISH...

And I find this kind of NONESENSE to be VERY VERY VERY offensive...

And it angers me to read such things - BASELESS as they are...

Arabic sources from the Islamic conquest speak of
QUOTE
Bilad al-Akrad in 700 AD.
.. Then HOW THE HELL do you prove that Kurds came to Colemźrg during LATE 16th-17th century?
I'm not gonna reply to such nonesense in the future...

And I'm definetly not gonna reply to long or short posts - as long as they aim at delegitimizing Kurdish presence with "we are natives" rubbish...



Danno, Hakkari was not Assyrian heartland, it was probably places where Assyrians left after the collapse of the empire.

However, Kurds nowadays make claims on parts of Assyrian Heartlands and proclaiming it to be always theirs.

I speak of the area between the upper Tigris and the two Zab Rivers.
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Rumtaya
post 05/10/08 09:39 AM
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QUOTE(Dīrī @ 05/10/08 05:26 PM) [snapback]122341[/snapback]
I don't have time now for long replies - but this nonesense about Kurds having migrated from Iran to Colemźrg ("Hakkari") and the REST of NORTH KURDISTAN - is RUBBISH...

And I find this kind of NONESENSE to be VERY VERY VERY offensive...

And it angers me to read such things - BASELESS as they are...

Arabic sources from the Islamic conquest speak of
QUOTE
Bilad al-Akrad in 700 AD.
.. Then HOW THE HELL do you prove that Kurds came to Colemźrg during LATE 16th-17th century?
I'm not gonna reply to such nonesense in the future...

And I'm definetly not gonna reply to long or short posts - as long as they aim at delegitimizing Kurdish presence with "we are natives" rubbish...



Danno, Hakkari was not Assyrian heartland, it was probably places where Assyrians left after the collapse of the empire.

However, Kurds nowadays make claims on parts of Assyrian Heartlands and proclaiming it to be always theirs.

I speak of the area between the upper Tigris and the two Zab Rivers.


oh yeah, please could you provide me some material about that kingdom? I would like to read on it icon_smile.gif
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Danno
post 05/11/08 11:09 AM
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QUOTE(Dīrī @ 05/10/08 11:26 AM) [snapback]122341[/snapback]
I don't have time now for long replies - but this nonesense about Kurds having migrated from Iran to Colemźrg ("Hakkari") and the REST of NORTH KURDISTAN - is RUBBISH...

And I find this kind of NONESENSE to be VERY VERY VERY offensive...

And it angers me to read such things - BASELESS as they are...

Arabic sources from the Islamic conquest speak of Bilad al-Akrad in 700 AD... Then HOW THE HELL do you prove that Kurds came to Colemźrg during LATE 16th-17th century?
I'm not gonna reply to such nonesense in the future...

And I'm definetly not gonna reply to long or short posts - as long as they aim at delegitimizing Kurdish presence with "we are natives" rubbish...


waoh why is it offensive...umm i thought u of all kurds would know that kurds arent natives of northern iraq....
Assyrians are natives of N. Iraq...almost all scholars would agree on that and even arabs...yes arabs from iraq say that Assyrians are natives....

umm...man listen...ovi kurds were in Assyrian lands and Assyrians in kurdish lands during our long history, but it was not in the 16th-17th cen. that there were mass migrations of kurds into previous Assyrian lands... This was a policy used by both Persians and Turks to use kurds as a buffer between the two incase a war were to break out....and as a result millions of Assyrians have lost thier lives icon_sad.gif
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Shinayi
post 05/11/08 01:01 PM
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That hat issue is interesting. Since I was a child I thought it is only Kurds who wear such conic hats. Today I learnt that even Christians of Kurdistan too use it.
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Shinayi
post 05/11/08 01:43 PM
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QUOTE(Danno @ 05/11/08 11:09 AM) [snapback]122359[/snapback]
waoh why is it offensive...umm i thought u of all kurds would know that kurds arent natives of northern iraq....
Assyrians are natives of N. Iraq...almost all scholars would agree on that and even arabs...yes arabs from iraq say that Assyrians are natives....

umm...man listen...ovi kurds were in Assyrian lands and Assyrians in kurdish lands during our long history, but it was not in the 16th-17th cen. that there were mass migrations of kurds into previous Assyrian lands... This was a policy used by both Persians and Turks to use kurds as a buffer between the two incase a war were to break out....and as a result millions of Assyrians have lost thier lives icon_sad.gif


Because Arabs are affraid of political ambitions of Kurds, therfore they prefer a forgotten powerless minority who can pose no threat against their british-created Iraq to their Kurdish enemies..
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Shinayi
post 05/11/08 01:46 PM
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Diri answered the clothing issue in one word; Clear and simple: While all Kurds more or less wear similar dress, it is an irony that ONLY christians of Kurdistan wear this aforementioned dress used by Kurds. That is meaningful for those who are reasonable.

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Sanharib
post 05/11/08 02:53 PM
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QUOTE(Shinayi @ 05/11/08 09:01 PM) [snapback]122361[/snapback]
That hat issue is interesting. Since I was a child I thought it is only Kurds who wear such conic hats. Today I learnt that even Christians of Kurdistan too use it.




None of their neighbors, Kurds, Arabs, Turks, or Persians wore such hat.


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Shinayi
post 05/11/08 03:10 PM
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QUOTE(Sanharib @ 05/11/08 02:53 PM) [snapback]122369[/snapback]
None of their neighbors, Kurds, Arabs, Turks, or Persians wore such hat.


Not accurate. Kurds do. search under their turban you will find it! They just hide it icon_smile.gif
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Sanharib
post 05/11/08 03:16 PM
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So they copied our clothing-style too? icon_wink.gif
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Shinayi
post 05/11/08 03:24 PM
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QUOTE(Sanharib @ 05/11/08 03:16 PM) [snapback]122371[/snapback]
So they copied our clothing-style too? icon_wink.gif


It's hard to say who got it from whom.
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Danno
post 05/11/08 06:02 PM
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QUOTE(Shinayi @ 05/11/08 05:24 PM) [snapback]122372[/snapback]
It's hard to say who got it from whom.


BINGO!! we got a winner icon_biggrin.gif
thats what ive been trying to say...Diri is saying what he is saying b/c thats what HE thinks...reality is that we here dont really know but all we can do is make educated guesses
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Shinayi
post 05/12/08 08:07 AM
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QUOTE(Danno @ 05/11/08 06:02 PM) [snapback]122377[/snapback]
BINGO!! we got a winner icon_biggrin.gif
thats what ive been trying to say...Diri is saying what he is saying b/c thats what HE thinks...reality is that we here dont really know but all we can do is make educated guesses

lol, I was tired last night and thought senharib talked about the hat issue, and i meanst the origin of the hat is not easy to comment on.
But actually the clothing issue is clear and simple, it's Kurdish clothes, and is inside circle of Kurdish culture, and that is a reason for why Christians of Kurdistan are called Kurdish christians or at least Kurdish by culture by outsiders (and probably by even themselves before the modern ethnic nationalism in middle east emegered.)
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Danno
post 05/12/08 10:11 AM
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QUOTE(Shinayi @ 05/12/08 10:07 AM) [snapback]122383[/snapback]
lol, I was tired last night and thought senharib talked about the hat issue, and i meanst the origin of the hat is not easy to comment on.
But actually the clothing issue is clear and simple, it's Kurdish clothes, and is inside circle of Kurdish culture, and that is a reason for why Christians of Kurdistan are called Kurdish christians or at least Kurdish by culture by outsiders (and probably by even themselves before the modern ethnic nationalism in middle east emegered.)


lol i guess i misunderstood you...ok so where is the proof that it was originally kurdish clothing...you are saying that b/c u are kurdish and have a clear bias on this topic...my assumption was that it was actually Assyrian clothing b/c they are similar to ancient Assyrian clothing and the fact that Assyrians experienced the mountain climates of hakkari first... but then again that is my assumption but its more educated with what you and diri have said b/c u havent given any reason as to why it was kurdish clothing first you just say...its kurdish clothing.... thats very uneducated my friend icon_biggrin.gif

ok and about Christians of Kurdistan and Christian Kurds...listen no one calls Assyrians that except for kurds who are trying to persecute Assyrians and erase their name from their native land.

Me personally if anyone called me a Christian Kurd i would first tell him to call me Assyrian but if he continues to call me Christian Kurd on purpose i think i would honestly punch the $#!T out of him until he goes into a coma b/c i dont think i would control myself. Im generally a peaceful guy but i would never except that.

It is VERY VERY VERY offensive if anyone calls an Assyrian that...that along with calling an Assyrian a turk or an arab are the worst things you can call an Assyrian. I suggest when you are talking face to face with an Assyrian you dont call him christian kurd or anything like that for your personal safty

Im not gonna post why its so offensive to Assyrians unless you really want me to.

Please Shinayi never call Assyrians Christian Kurds of anything like that and call us Assyrians

Thanx
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Dīrī
post 05/12/08 01:56 PM
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QUOTE(Danno @ 05/12/08 11:11 AM) [snapback]122388[/snapback]
lol i guess i misunderstood you...ok so where is the proof that it was originally kurdish clothing...you are saying that b/c u are kurdish and have a clear bias on this topic...my assumption was that it was actually Assyrian clothing b/c they are similar to ancient Assyrian clothing and the fact that Assyrians experienced the mountain climates of hakkari first... but then again that is my assumption but its more educated with what you and diri have said b/c u havent given any reason as to why it was kurdish clothing first you just say...its kurdish clothing.... thats very uneducated my friend icon_biggrin.gif

ok and about Christians of Kurdistan and Christian Kurds...listen no one calls Assyrians that except for kurds who are trying to persecute Assyrians and erase their name from their native land.

Me personally if anyone called me a Christian Kurd i would first tell him to call me Assyrian but if he continues to call me Christian Kurd on purpose i think i would honestly punch the $#!T out of him until he goes into a coma b/c i dont think i would control myself. Im generally a peaceful guy but i would never except that.

It is VERY VERY VERY offensive if anyone calls an Assyrian that...that along with calling an Assyrian a turk or an arab are the worst things you can call an Assyrian. I suggest when you are talking face to face with an Assyrian you dont call him christian kurd or anything like that for your personal safty

Im not gonna post why its so offensive to Assyrians unless you really want me to.

Please Shinayi never call Assyrians Christian Kurds of anything like that and call us Assyrians

Thanx



Uneducated?

Instead of being so condescending - I suggest you study a map to comprehend what I said:

Kurds wear - more or less - the SAME clothes from Dersīm in north-western Kurdistan to Dehloran in south-eastern Kurdistan... Do you know where these two cities are located?

Study a map...

Here is one:



In the contigious area - Kurds wear their national clothes independent of religion, language/dialect or any other factors... These are NATIONAL Kurdish clothes...


If that is too hard for you to comprehend - along with the fact that Kurds have inhabited upper Mesopotamia for THOUSANDS of years (and are NATIVES of that land as much as anybody else there) - then I suggest you educate yourself a little more..

There is a proverb: "When the cat is gone - the mice dance on the table..."

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Rumtaya
post 05/12/08 02:08 PM
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QUOTE(Dīrī @ 05/12/08 09:56 PM) [snapback]122394[/snapback]
Uneducated?

Instead of being so condescending - I suggest you study a map to comprehend what I said:

Kurds wear - more or less - the SAME clothes from Dersīm in north-western Kurdistan to Dehloran in south-eastern Kurdistan... Do you know where these two cities are located?

Study a map...

Here is one:



In the contigious area - Kurds wear their national clothes independent of religion, language/dialect or any other factors... These are NATIONAL Kurdish clothes...
If that is too hard for you to comprehend - along with the fact that Kurds have inhabited upper Mesopotamia for THOUSANDS of years (and are NATIVES of that land as much as anybody else there) - then I suggest you educate yourself a little more..

There is a proverb: "When the cat is gone - the mice dance on the table..."



Not to Assyria, Northern Mesopotamia is the area of SE Turkey and that obviously is not Assyria.

The 1833, Kurdish governor of Rowanduz, Mira Koor, attacked Tel Keppe and Alqosh and killed thousands of its inhabitants, kidnapped their women and children, and burned and destroyed what he can not take with him.


thats an good example about telling you what happend to places of Northern Iraq (nohadra,ninawa and arbil)

However, what we are lookin for is just that you guys regodnize the Fact that most of what is today Northern Iraq or KRG was/is Assyria.

You guys do not like to hear South East Turkey, but prefer Northern Kurdistan, now just be so fair and realize the same with Northern Iraq, probably our numbers are much fewer then yours, but you know the reasons, however this should not mean Assyrians have less rights to those lands.

Oh yeah if the Kurds want articale 140 to be implemented, it should also be implemented in the KRG region icon_wink.gif

Everything else would be double moral

peace with Kurdistan and Assyria, Palestine, Israel and everyother people who are in struggle for statehood.
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Senharib
post 05/12/08 02:21 PM
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###### mountain turks (qurds) making false claims. What the f***, who would believe these gypsies if not themselves. Ive heard many true stories from our elders. How incompetent mountain turks (read dogs) was following us like puppies and learning from our ways. They were living like scavengers at our cost. Mountain w***** (kurds) has no history nor culture. Not in my homeparts Tur-abdin or around Beth-nahrin. Even to this day they havent managed to get civilised, although they live on our lands and in our houses. Primitive ######!

Diri - U mountain kahp. Stfu little punk with turkish bakground! You as i know your bakground delivers from gypsies. Every claim and historical event coming from you is based on lies, propaganda. WHOM is gonna believe you??? When every group knows how your people is without honour, without worth. Worthless piece of junk manage to get hard behind a computer and spread lies. There is only one sollution to this conflict. Nuclear materials would do it all, to wipe a specific type of "people" from this reality!

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Rumtaya
post 05/12/08 02:27 PM
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QUOTE(Senharib @ 05/12/08 10:21 PM) [snapback]122397[/snapback]
###### mountain turks (qurds) making false claims. What the f***, who would believe these gypsies if not themselves. Ive heard many true stories from our elders. How incompetent mountain turks (read dogs) was following us like puppies and learning from our ways. They were living like scavengers at our cost. Mountain w***** (kurds) has no history nor culture. Not in my homeparts Tur-abdin or around Beth-nahrin. Even to this day they havent managed to get civilised, although they live on our lands and in our houses. Primitive ######!

Diri - U mountain kahp. Stfu little punk with turkish bakground! You as i know your bakground delivers from gypsies. Every claim and historical event coming from you is based on lies, propaganda. WHOM is gonna believe you??? When every group knows how your people is without honour, without worth. Worthless piece of junk manage to get hard behind a computer and spread lies. There is only one sollution to this conflict. Nuclear materials would do it all, to wipe a specific type of "people" from this reality!



Senherib, no insulting please we can talk all without beeing rude. Do me a favour and put away words like "mountain turks" and gypsies.

If we like it or not, Assyrians must suppourt anyone who is lookin for self-determation. Probably claims from our kurdish friends are sometimes over exaggareted, but this is till not a reaosn to insult.

Kurds must and hopefully will realize by themselves what happend in the last few hundred of years and if they are lookin for friendshp it is of great importance to not undermine Assyrian rights, since that one would be also a doubal moral.

peace
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Danno
post 05/12/08 10:16 PM
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QUOTE(Dīrī @ 05/12/08 03:56 PM) [snapback]122394[/snapback]
Uneducated?

Instead of being so condescending - I suggest you study a map to comprehend what I said:

Kurds wear - more or less - the SAME clothes from Dersīm in north-western Kurdistan to Dehloran in south-eastern Kurdistan... Do you know where these two cities are located?

Study a map...

Here is one:



In the contigious area - Kurds wear their national clothes independent of religion, language/dialect or any other factors... These are NATIONAL Kurdish clothes...
If that is too hard for you to comprehend - along with the fact that Kurds have inhabited upper Mesopotamia for THOUSANDS of years (and are NATIVES of that land as much as anybody else there) - then I suggest you educate yourself a little more..

There is a proverb: "When the cat is gone - the mice dance on the table..."


Assyrians wear the same clothing from Nuadra to Chicago to Toronto to San Jose to Moscaw to Sydney and heres a map of the cities from around the world if u dont know where they are:




Diri please listen to me bro... I am not saying kurds dont wear those clothing from bla bla bla to this other place...YOU ARE RITE!!
But that being the fact does NOT prove that these clothing were Kurdish Clothing!!! You said the Assyrian national clothing is really kurdish clothing and so far i have asked you to give me proof of this and all the time your response has been that ALL kurds wear these clothes....THATS NOT PROOF!!!!!

Listen if u say something like that i want you to properly back it up or else stop saying it...

Also Kurds are not native to N. Iraq... HOW CAN U EVEN SAY THAT!!! Assyrians are and if anything else Kurds are Native to N.W. Iran!!
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Dīrī
post 05/13/08 07:35 AM
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QUOTE(Danno @ 05/12/08 11:16 PM) [snapback]122407[/snapback]
Assyrians wear the same clothing from Nuadra to Chicago to Toronto to San Jose to Moscaw to Sydney and heres a map of the cities from around the world if u dont know where they are:


Diri please listen to me bro... I am not saying kurds dont wear those clothing from bla bla bla to this other place...YOU ARE RITE!!
But that being the fact does NOT prove that these clothing were Kurdish Clothing!!! You said the Assyrian national clothing is really kurdish clothing and so far i have asked you to give me proof of this and all the time your response has been that ALL kurds wear these clothes....THATS NOT PROOF!!!!!

Listen if u say something like that i want you to properly back it up or else stop saying it...

Also Kurds are not native to N. Iraq... HOW CAN U EVEN SAY THAT!!! Assyrians are and if anything else Kurds are Native to N.W. Iran!!


Talk about BACKING UP things... When are you gonna give us proof that Kurds didn't "come to Hakkari" before "16-17th centuries"...?

So you continue with the condescending tone...

Toronto, Moscow and whatever are not part of Assyria... I didn't know your geographic knowledge was that limited... But if you're gonna talk about disapora you will lose the argument... Heck - you'll lose the argument no matter what - because 4 million Assyrians are a drop in the sea of 40 million Kurds... BUT anyway...

If you don't want to understand my point, then I'll feed you tea spoons:

There is more than 2000 KM between Dersīm and Dehloran... Kurds have always lived in the mountainous areas which today carry the name "Kurdistan" - which have been called "Bilad Al-Akrad" by some, "Corduene" by some and "Gutium" by others... There are 5-6000 year old Sumerian cuniform inscriptions on tablets and stone which attest the existence of the KUR-DI people in the mountains north of Sumeria and Babylon...

I'm gonna start a new thread about this issue of nationalism in the general room - but I just want you to comprehend this much:

Kurds, Assyrians, Persians, Turks, Greeks, Armenians, Turkmen etc. - are all MODERN "nations" - the term "nation" used to mean "people" before... Today it's become politicized and thus does not carry the same meaning as before... So when I say "Modern nations" - you have to understand that I imply that there were no such "nations" before - just peoples... Who then - because of political agendas - formed "nations"...

The Assyrians of today are just as much related to the Ancient Assyrians as the Kurds are related to the Hurrians or the Medes...

There is a linguistic and cultural heritage in both cases - but in no case is there a direct descent or untouched bloodline...

People converted to religions and fought wars, married, made peace through pacts etc. - there is no poof that we are what we say we are...

There is only ONE truth: KURDS, AssyrianS, ARMENIANS, PERSIANS, TURKS, ARABS, TURKMEN all share the SAME GENEPOOL... Which means they are ALL natives to these lands... Even though the IDEAS of "nationhood" may be new - they are built on already existing peoples...


And no - I didn't say Assyrian national clothing was really Kurdish national clothing... I said if you want to claim descent from the ANCIENT Assyrians - then at least own up to their national clothes - which look nothing like Kurdish clothes...

Kurdish national clothes are worn by 40 million Kurds - who in most cases have had NO contact with other regions of Kurdistan except in cities - so how can 40 million Kurds wear the same style of clothes if they aren't their national clothes from ANCIENT times... And since there has been NO efforts to make Kurds wear this or that - but that they've worn what they wear from TRADITION...

Of course you can't explain that... That would be counter to your claim that you are descendants of Ancient Assyrians... icon_rolleyes.gif


And BTW - how you always write "Assyrian" with a capital letter and "kurd" with a minor letter is very revealing of your mentality - how you obviously look down on Kurds...

Which of course is no secret especially after you said Kurds "came to Hakkari in the 16-17th centuries"...


So where is the proof?

And where is the proof that Kurds "came" from anywhere BUT Kurdistan...?

There is none... You just like to believe so - because that makes so much sense for people who want to be victims...

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Rumtaya
post 05/13/08 08:02 AM
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QUOTE
There is only ONE truth: KURDS, AssyrianS, ARMENIANS, PERSIANS, TURKS, ARABS, TURKMEN all share the SAME GENEPOOL... Which means they are ALL natives to these lands... Even though the IDEAS of "nationhood" may be new - they are built on already existing peoples...


Well, they do but that doesnt mean that all of this nation lived for thousand of years where tehy are living now.

If you would read up things, you would realize that many Assyrians have been forced into assimilation into the arab,kurdish and turkish nations.

There have been kidnapped so many Assyrian women and young children, no wonder youll find genetic shares, however this should not be a point to argue about 100 times.

QUOTE
Which of course is no secret especially after you said Kurds "came to Hakkari in the 16-17th centuries"...


I only know for the fact that Assyrians sought refugee in the Hakkari mountains in the last 1000 years, due to the many attacks from various groups, including Kurdish invading of Assyrian lands in todays northern Iraq, I just brought up somewhere an example of how the people of kurdish kingdom Rowanduz sacked and attacked Assyrians in todays ninawa and nohadra area.

As for beeing fair, Kurds have probably inhabited the mountain areas north of ASSYRIA for many hundred of years. People should stick to the truth, the Hakkari mountains and the Zagros Mountains were never a part of the original Assyrian Homeland, however that doesnt mean Assyria does not contain mountains, because that one is false, we have populated mostly plan and highland, but we also had our mountain areas just north of Alqosh, probably 80% of todays Dohuk Province.

But Kurds have been imported from the Ottoman Empire into Assyrian Areas of todays Mardin,Urfa areas to increase the sunni muslim population, because Christians overnumberd them.

Today you have less then 150 000 Christians in Turkey. However 99% of areas which were populated before by Armenians and Assyrians are nowadays populated by Kurds.


QUOTE
There is more than 2000 KM between Dersīm and Dehloran... Kurds have always lived in the mountainous areas which today carry the name "Kurdistan" - which have been called "Bilad Al-Akrad" by some, "Corduene" by some and "Gutium" by others... There are 5-6000 year old Sumerian cuniform inscriptions on tablets and stone which attest the existence of the KUR-DI people in the mountains north of Sumeria and Babylon...


Yes there is mention, but you should stick to the areas which have been mentioned as such. As I am beeing honest towards Kurdish Homeland which centre likes bewteen the Van-Urmia-Suleimani Area, you should stick to the truth that Assyria is not limited to the "Nineveh Plains", although we do not have anymore the population to inhabit the areas we probably had 150, 300, or 500 years ago.

Kurds nowaday seek in Iraq that the articale 140 should be implemented meaning to normalize the areas which were effected by Saddams derportation campaing, would you then be also just out of fairness and righthousness, allow the Assyrians to retake all their lost properties in todays Nohadra (dohuk) and Aqra region?

What is your opinion towards such an act Diri? If Kurds do really want to make a change in the Middle East and beeing an good example for the other nations by whom they are beeing opressed, they should start giving Assyrians back what they had lost begining from 1933.

I am not talking about areas in Turkey nor in Iran, those are lost areas and hardly linkable to an Assyrian area, but those villages which were taken by Kurds should be givin back, just like Kurds want Kirkuk back, dont you think so?

We have an Assyrian Town in Syria, called Tel Tammer, it used to be 100% Assyrians, but with the time Assyrians left and sold their homes to Kurds and later to Arabs, I would never ever talk about that town beeing forcly occupied or taken, because those people sold them, there was no war or anything alike, they left due to many diffrent causes.

But as for Assyrian villages in Northern Iraq, we all know that this area was unstabil since the creation of Iraq (1932) and very very few did just leave and sold them, the overhelming majority were forced to flee where some Kurds took advantage of the situation to take those villages.

So if we want to talk about who does belongs to whom, we should probably forget the times before the creation of the various states and argue or dicuss about them after their creation.

People need to settle on!!!

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Danno
post 05/13/08 05:55 PM
Post #44


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Conflict/Cultural/Country Interest: I am Assyrian and I am interested in Assyrian Independence (Nineveh Plain) Kurdish Independence, Iraq War, Iraqi Civil War, Kurdish Vs. Turks, and Turkish involvment in Iraq and Kurdistan



QUOTE(Dīrī @ 05/13/08 09:35 AM) [snapback]122416[/snapback]
Kurds, Assyrians, Persians, Turks, Greeks, Armenians, Turkmen etc. - are all MODERN "nations" - the term "nation" used to mean "people" before... Today it's become politicized and thus does not carry the same meaning as before... So when I say "Modern nations" - you have to understand that I imply that there were no such "nations" before - just peoples... Who then - because of political agendas - formed "nations"...

The Assyrians of today are just as much related to the Ancient Assyrians as the Kurds are related to the Hurrians or the Medes...

There is a linguistic and cultural heritage in both cases - but in no case is there a direct descent or untouched bloodline...

People converted to religions and fought wars, married, made peace through pacts etc. - there is no poof that we are what we say we are...


See that is nothing but bullshit from you...How can u say that
I am aware that there is no "untouched" people but we are still different

rite now you sound no different than some stupid Iraqi Arabs who say that their decendents are the builders of Assyrian and Babylon...YOU ARE JUST LIKE THEM!!
all any of you try to do is take our name and our rich history and claim it as ur own and that is what everyone calls Cultural Genocide...the Arabs, Turks and Kurds have done this throughout our history and continue to do this today (in ur case)

Here is a report about the DNA and all that other bullshit you say that we are all the same WE ARE NOT!!

QUOTE
The Genetics of Modern Assyrians and their Relationship to Other People of the Middle East

by Dr. Joel J. Elias - Professor (Emeritus)
University of California School of Medicine, San Francisco

Posted: Thursday, July 20, 2000 11:53 AM CT



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The authors of the book "The History and Geography of Human Genes"1, published in 1994, and the abridged version in 1962, took on the monumental task of analyzing the vast number of research articles written about genetic properties of different human populations. The senior author, Prof. L.L. Cavalli-Sforza, Professor of Genetics at Stanford University, is considered one of the preeminent human population geneticists in the world, a field that he has been working in for over forty years. After eight years of collecting this massive information, the authors spent several more years doing the genetic and statistical analyses using sophisticated computer methods. The objective was nothing less than to define the genetic variations in the entire human population of the world and, from that information, to trace the origin and migration of modern humans to their present locations on the planet (hence the "History and Geography" in the title). As the American Journal of Human Genetics stated, "This book represents a landmark in biology. There is nothing of its kind... where the evolutionary history of a single species possessing a cosmopolitan distribution is distilled from genetic, morphological, and cultural data. It represents an essential historical source for all human biologists ... " And as the New York Times said, "Perhaps more than anyone else in his field, Dr. Cavalli-Sforza ... has been able to make sense of the whisperings of human ancestors that are recorded in the genes of present-day people."

For their study, the authors chose to use data from only those populations that had been in the same geographic area for at least 500 years. They considered them as the native indigenous people of an area ("aboriginal") that could be used to trace human population origins, relationships and migrations. From analysis of the genes in these populations, it became possible to determine not only the genetic makeup of a people and the genetic relationships of different groups to each other, but also to measure the "genetic distance" between them. The analyses showed that there were sufficient data to provide statistically significant information on the genetic characteristics of 491 different human populations. Assyrians were one of them3-6. In this article, we will focus on the knowledge that has been gained about Assyrians and the genetic relationships between Assyrians and their neighbors, with the hope that it will lead to better understanding between the people of the Middle East.

Members of a specific human population, for example an ethnic group, identify with each other by a shared language and also by cultural, religious, social, geographic, and other features which are held in common. They distinguish themselves from other groups by the same criteria. What are "hidden" from external view are genetically determined attributes of the type that are only brought into the light by scientific methods such as those described in this book, and they reveal a very important component of a group - its genetic character. This can provide both a genetic definition of a group and also its relationships to other groups that would not be apparent otherwise. The use of language along with genetics to define groups is very useful, but linguistic change can occur much faster than genetic change and "languages are sometimes replaced by others of totally different origin in a very short time", as will be pointed out later in this article. As the authors state, "Only genes almost always have the degree of permanence necessary for discussing" the changes in populations that took place in the history of our species.

I have attempted the difficult task of presenting this information for the general reader in a concise way without compromising accuracy. Technical terms placed in parentheses are informative but not essential to understanding the basic ideas. But one technical element is crucial to the understanding of this information and I must briefly discuss it here. The chemical substance that makes up genes is DNA. A specific gene controlling the formation of a specific product may undergo a chemical alteration in its DNA ("mutation"). The product that it forms will then also be altered. We now have two forms of the same gene ("alleles") in the population and different individuals can get different forms of the gene. In the case of the familiar A, B, AB, and O blood types, whether an individual has the A form of the gene, the B form, or neither, determines the blood type. A human population can be genetically characterized by determining the distribution of the various forms of genes within that population ("gene frequency") - for example, what percentage of the population has the A, B, or O gene. When this is done for enough people and for enough different genes a "genetic profile" emerges for that population. Genes control the synthesis of proteins. In the "classical" studies that form the greater part of the material in the Cavalli-Sforza et al. book, the structure of the protein is analyzed as a genetic marker - the specific structure of the protein reflects the specific structure of the gene that codes for it. The proteins commonly analyzed as genetic markers are those that determine various types of blood groups, enzymes, blood serum proteins, hemoglobin, antibodies and cellular markers of the immune system (HLA system). In addition, direct analysis of DNA has recently become increasingly common and, of course, adds to the information pool about the genetic makeup of a people. In his very recent book2a, Cavalli-Sforza says: "Results with DNA have complemented but never contradicted the protein data." An example of DNA analysis will be seen later as part of the discussion of Jewish genetics.

Analysis of the Assyrians shows that they have a distinct genetic profile that distinguishes their population from any other population. It is important to understand that this applies to the population as a whole, not to any one individual. Each individual can have a variety of genetic features, but it is when all the data for the individuals are assembled together that the population can become distinctive. The authors state that "The Assyrians are a fairly homogeneous group of people, believed to originate from the land of old Assyria in northern Iraq," and "they are Christians and are possibly bona fide descendants of their namesakes." The main research paper on Assyrians is that of Akbari et al. (3), who state "that the Assyrians are a group of Christians with a long history in the Middle East. From historical and archeological evidence, it is thought that their ancestors formed part of the Mesopotamian civilization." Akbari et al. examined some 500 members of Christian communities in Iran (Armenians and Assyrians from six localities) from whom specimens were obtained and examined for a number of blood group, red cell enzyme and serum protein systems. In the case of Assyrians, the researchers studied 18 different gene sites with a total of 47 different forms of those genes (alleles) in Assyrians in two regions of Iran - Urmia and Tehran. The particular gene frequencies of those 47 genes in the population formed the basis, along with the other two studies (4, 5), for establishing the distinctive genetic character of the Assyrians. A major finding of the study is that Assyrians, especially those in Urmia (their home area in Iran), are genetically homogeneous to a high degree. That is, an individual Assyrian's genetic makeup is relatively close to that of the Assyrian population as a whole. "The results indicate the relatively closed nature of the [Assyrian] community as a whole," and "due to their religious and cultural traditions, there has been little intermixture with other populations." The small size of the population is also a factor. The genetic data are compatible with historical data that religion played a major role in maintaining the Assyrian population's separate identity during the Christian era.



For most of that period Assyrians existed as a Christian minority in non-Christian majority populations, and adherence to their religion, abundantly documented in the historical record, would have provided a "genetic barrier" to gene flow from external groups. In analyzing other groups in similar situations, Cavalli-Sforza et al. arrived at this opinion: "The important conclusion is that the genetic origin of groups that have been surrounded for a long time by populations of different genetic type can be recognized as different only if they have maintained a fairly rigid endogamy [ marriage within the group] for most or all the period in which they have been in contact with other groups," although genes contributed by external groups ("gene flow") can be tolerated for many centuries or even millennia by a population, provided they are not on a large scale. Later in this article we will see an analogous situation with Jews, where a religious difference allowed them to maintain their genetic characteristics as a minority over many centuries while living among non-Jewish majority populations. In any case, the data provide unequivocal evidence that Assyrians as a people are distinguishable from all other population groups in their genetic characteristics and are not a part of any other population.

The second important contribution that emerges from the book is seen when genetic relationships are made between the 18 populations of Western Asia for which enough data were available to allow meaningful interpretation. The results are summarized in the "tree" shown in the figure. The horizontal scale at the bottom quantitates the genetic distance between groups. The individual populations are listed in the general order of their relationships. The three Arab populations at the lowest part of the "tree" (Saudi, Yemeni, Bedouin) are close to each other genetically but are so far separated from the others as to constitute what the authors call a separate "minor cluster." The remaining 15 groups constitute the "major cluster."

Our primary purpose here is to define the relationships of Assyrians to their closest neighbors in the Middle East, so we will focus on seven groups that appear at the top of the "tree." Of these, Iranian and Iraqi are defined by the country of origin, after exclusion of Kurds. Jordanian, Lebanese and Turkish also mean the country of origin. Assyrians and Kurds refer to specific groups of people. All those studied were indigenous people of the area whose roots in their geographic locations go back to at least 1500 A.D. Relationship pairings are shown: Turkish and Iranian, and Assyrian and Jordanian are "loose" pairings; Druse and Lebanese form a closer pair; and Iraqi and Kurdish people form an extremely close pairing. The closest genetic relationships of the Assyrians are with the native populations of Jordan and Iraq. In point of fact, however, all of the seven populations of interest are quite close to each other. There are no wide separations between any of them. This despite the fact that they contain members of three major language families: Indo-European (Iranian, Kurdish), Turkic (Turkish) and Semitic (Iraqi, Jordanian, Lebanese - Arabic; Assyrian - Aramaic). As the authors state, "In spite of the complex history of the Middle East and the great number of internal group migrations revealed by history, as well as the mosaic of cultures and languages, the region is relatively homogeneous" [genetically]. The least heterogeneous zone of Asia "is observed in the Near East, where the highest population densities have existed the longest, especially in the central part (Mesopotamia). Ten thousand years of agriculture, ancient urban developments, and internal migrations are probably responsible for this homogeneity." Thus, in that part of the world with the most ancient civilizations, an underlying genetic homogeneity has been "masked" by great cultural, religious and linguistic heterogeneity.

The latter point is also made in studies of Jews. Based on earlier studies using classical genetic methods7 , Cavalli-Sforza et al. came to the conclusion "that Jews have maintained considerable genetic similarity among themselves and with people from the Middle East, with whom they have common origins." Evidence for the latter concept was very convincingly made and extended by an international team of scientists in a very recent research article ,widely reported in the press, in which the genetics of different Middle Eastern populations were studied using a completely different method than the classical methods that form the great majority of papers in the Cavalli-Sforza et al book. The research involved direct DNA analysis of the Y chromosome, which is found only in males and is passed down from father to son. Seven different Jewish groups from communities in Europe, North Africa and the Middle East were compared to various non-Jewish populations from those areas. The results showed, first of all, that "Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level." Furthermore, the genetic characteristics of Jews were shown to be distinctly different from (non-Jewish) Europeans, suggesting that very little admixture occurred between Jews and Europeans, even after about 80 generations of Jews in Europe. There was a similar distinct difference between Jews and North Africans. In striking contrast, there was an "extremely close affinity of Jewish and non-Jewish Middle Eastern populations [Palestinians, Syrians, Lebanese, Druze, Saudi Arabians] observed here ...[that] supports the hypothesis of a common Middle Eastern origin" of these populations dating back about 4,000 years. The differences between the populations were not statistically significant, demonstrating once again the close genetic relationship of Middle Eastern populations to each other. In fact, the Palestinians and Syrians were so close to the Jews in genetic characteristics that they "mapped within the central cluster of Jewish populations." As one of the Israeli scientists on the team said, "Eventually people will realize that they are not that different." Peace through Genetics?

Let us examine the situation in two areas of the Middle East where a radical change in the population and language occurred rapidly without being accompanied by a significant genetic change, and try to explain it. The land that now forms the nation of Turkey (Anatolia) was once a part of Byzantium. Greek (Christian) was the major influence there. The Turkic-speaking people arrived there from Central Asia in the 11th century A.D., spread successfully throughout the land and Turkish eventually became the dominant language as a Turkish nation was established. Turks are, as the authors state, "the only major group in the region that speak a language originated at a great geographic distance (probably in the Altaic region)." The pre-existing people in Anatolia, however, did not physically disappear. The genetic studies show that the majority became part of the new Turkish population. The genetic constitution of the Turks today is much closer to their nearest geographic neighbors, although none is a Turkic-language population, than to the Turkic-speaking populations of Central Asia. The authors interpret this to mean that "the Turkish language was imposed on a predominantly Indo-European-speaking population (Greek being the official language of the Byzantine empire), and genetically there is very little difference between Turkey and the neighboring countries. The number of Turkish invaders was probably rather small and was genetically diluted by the large number of aborigines." And [ in Turkey] "language replacement has occurred essentially without, or with very little, gene replacement."

In view of the authors' theory explaining the genetic characteristics of the population in Turkey, it seems reasonable to consider the possibility that a similar type of event may have occurred in the Arab world of Mesopotamia and its adjacent regions - Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon (and presumably also Syria and Palestine) - to explain the genetic characteristics of those populations. In the 7th century A.D., after the conversion to Islam, the Arabs of the Arabian peninsula conquered large areas, including Mesopotamia and adjacent regions. Arabic became the major language of the region and an Arab nation was established there under Islam. But again, the pre-existing indigenous population, mainly Christian (including Assyrians), did not physically disappear, and the majority must have become part of the Arab population. Looking at the figure, one sees a very large genetic separation between the Arabs of the South - Saudis, Yemenites - and those in the region of Mesopotamia - Jordanian, Iraqi. The latter two groups are much closer genetically to the four non-Arab people of the region that we are interested in (Turk, Iranian, Kurd, Assyrian) than to the Arabs of the Arabian peninsula. As in the case of the Turks in Anatolia, these findings provide a clue that a relatively small number of Arabs from the Arabian peninsula may have carried out the conquest of a region with a much larger population, which included a number of cities, and that although the dominant language, religion and culture changed, the genes of the previous population may not have been significantly diluted and were transmitted to the present population of that region.

Finally, as seen in the figure, the two Indo-European language populations, the Iranians and the Kurds, are genetically closer to the Turks and the Semitic language group of Iraqi, Jordanian, Lebanese, Assyrian, than they are to their nearest Indo-European language speaking neighbors - Armenian, Pathan, Hazara Tajiki. In fact, the figure shows that the latter are part of a separate subcluster from the one in which the Iranians and Kurds are located.

The results of these scientific studies lead to the startling realization that Turks, Iranians, Kurds, Iraqis, Jordanians, Lebanese are more closely related genetically to Assyrians than they are to other members of their own respective language families in Asia. These seven groups (and Jews) are genetically close. The great language, cultural and religious differences are not reflected in the most fundamental aspect of their biology - their genes, which are the most accurate indicators of their shared origins and ancestry. If this were widely known, would the Assyrians seem so "different" to the others? Would changes in attitude begin to take place, especially among the intellectual and academic communities and the younger generations?

We stand with hope at the dawn of a new millennium. For mankind in general, the future holds exciting scientific prospects for understanding our past and present genetic nature. The tiniest amounts of DNA recovered from people who died thousands of years ago can now be exactly reproduced billions of times, providing abundant material for analyzing the genetic nature of ancient ancestors ("genetic archeology"). The "whisperings of our ancestors" can now be heard by us with our DNA amplifiers. Molecular genetics is poised to take understanding of the human race to heights undreamed of just a few years ago. Within the year there will occur one of the most momentous events in human history - the complete definition of the entire human genetic code (genome) of about 100,000 genes ("human genome project"). We will be able to see the complete DNA blueprint for creating a human being, God's handwritten letter to us9. Future research will show how little difference there is between us in our DNA, giving us an unparalleled opportunity to understand how much of our humanity we hold in common.

Also standing at the dawn of the new millennium are the Assyrians - on the brink of extinction. For over 1900 years since they accepted Christianity and established the Church of the East, the Assyrians in the Middle East have survived for the most part as a religious and language minority. While this preserved their identity and kept them from disappearing, it came at a terrible price. The history of the Assyrians reads like one long unbroken story of massacre, persecution and indescribable horror, culminating in the 20th century with genocide and diaspora, followed by even more persecution and massacre. Was it just a coincidence that the first fratricide occurred in the Middle East, when Cain murdered his brother Abel? Will we ever be free of the curse of Cain? Will the younger generations of the Middle East release their souls from the dark forces of the past? Will the knowledge that Assyrians are their "blood relatives" begin to change the perception of Middle Eastern people about Assyrians? Will it be too late for the Assyrians?

References and Footnotes

Cavalli-Sforza, L.L., Menozzi, P. and Piazza, A. The History and Geography of Human Genes. 1994. Princeton University Press. Unabridged Edition.
As above, Abridged Paperback Edition. 1996. Contains the text of the Unabridged Edition, but not the hundreds of pages of genetic maps; has an index, and references to literature that were cited in the text. Only the unabridged version has the references for research articles that were used to arrive at each population group's genetic analysis, listed by name for each population; also, the tables of gene frequencies.

2a. Cavalli-Sforza, L.L. Genes, Peoples, and Languages. 2000. North Point Press (division of Farrar, Straus and Giroux), New York. The book is a summation of the author's work written for the general reader.
Akbari, M.T. et al. Genetic Differentiation among Iranian Christian Communities. Am. J. Hum. Genetics, 38: 84-98. 1986. [Armenians and Assyrians].
Papiha, S.S. et al. Isoelectric focusing of vitamin D binding protein (Gc): Genetic diversity in the population of Iran. Jpn. J. Hum. Genet., 30: 69-73. 1985.
Amin-Zaki, L. et al. Glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency among ethnic groups in Iraq. Bull. WHO, 47:1-5. 1972.
(References 3,4 and 5 were used to establish the Assyrian genetics in the Cavalli-Sforza et al. book).
Ikin, E.W. et al. The blood groups and haemoglobins of the Assyrians of Iraq. Man, 65:110-111. 1965.
Carmelli, D. and Cavalli-Sforza, L.L. The genetic origin of the Jews: A multi-variate approach. Hum. Biol., 51:41-61. 1979.
Hammer, M.F. et al. [12 authors]. Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes. Proceedings National Academy Sciences USA. The article appeared online on the website of the journal (www.pnas.org) on May 9, 2000, in advance of print publication. At the next issue of the journal, May 23, the article was still only online. Presumably, it will be in print in the following issue - June 6.
The entire DNA code is written in an "alphabet" of four "letters," A, T, G, C, which stand for the four bases found in DNA - adenine, thymine, guanine, cytosine. The bases are lined up in a precise sequence to create a specific gene, say one that has 1,000 bases. Alteration of even one of the bases is a mutation.
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Danno
post 05/13/08 06:03 PM
Post #45


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Conflict/Cultural/Country Interest: I am Assyrian and I am interested in Assyrian Independence (Nineveh Plain) Kurdish Independence, Iraq War, Iraqi Civil War, Kurdish Vs. Turks, and Turkish involvment in Iraq and Kurdistan



QUOTE(Dīrī @ 05/13/08 09:35 AM) [snapback]122416[/snapback]
Talk about BACKING UP things... When are you gonna give us proof that Kurds didn't "come to Hakkari" before "16-17th centuries"...?

So you continue with the condescending tone...


Which of course is no secret especially after you said Kurds "came to Hakkari in the 16-17th centuries"...
So where is the proof?

And where is the proof that Kurds "came" from anywhere BUT Kurdistan...?

There is none... You just like to believe so - because that makes so much sense for people who want to be victims...


I got the info from a lecture i attended in Mississauga by Dr. Aboona...
here it is:

QUOTE
ACSSU Lecture Series – Lecture 2
By Dr. Hermis Aboona

In ACSSU’s second lecture for 2008, our very own local Torontonian, Dr. Hermis Aboona, presented his first ACSSU sponsored discourse. A distinguished scholar, Dr. Aboona recently received his Ph.D. from the University of Exeter (in the United Kingdom). His doctorate focused on the Assyrian tribes of Tiyari and Hakkari and their relations with the Kurds and Ottomans. His lecture (which was ACSSU’s first non-English lecture – delivered in Syriac) was entitled “The Early Demographic Changes of Northern Iraq” which he presented at the Assyrian Society of Canada on Sunday March 16th, 2008.

A native of Alqosh (Iraq) himself, Dr. Aboona provided an overview of the past 2,000 years that contributed to the constant reshaping of Mesopotamia (as Iraq was then called). From the Silk Route travels of Genghis Khan, Islamic expansion, the Sunni Ottoman and Persian Shi’a states and the emergence of autonomous Assyrian and Kurdish Tribal clans, his chronological timeline arguably presented military and political highlights that left their mark on the ancient Assyrian heartland.

His lecture can be divided into five main subdivisions and they are as follows:

The rivalry between the Shi’a of Iran, Sunni Ottoman and Kurds (of Azerbaijan Iran) that led to a conflict between the groups
The Ottoman anchoring of their Eastern Frontier
Ethnic and Religious group assessment of the status quo of the Ottomans
The Ottoman last display of power
The Ottoman success in their Plan of Centralization

As always, unique content was gleaned by eager and careful listeners to the lecture. For example, almost 75% of Iraq was comprised of Assyrians both during the pre and post-Mongolian invasion era. Furthermore, to prevent the expansion of Shi’ism among the Persians, the Sunni Ottomans assisted and supported the Sunni Kurds (who resided in Azerbaijan) to move to the Assyrian heartland (Northern Iraq) and protect that region’s borders from the Persians. As a result, this altered the demographics as Assyrian villages began to be occupied by Kurds.

He then turned to the tragic chapter of Bedr Khan Beg’s decimation of the Assyrians and the famous Assyrian Tribes of Tur Abdin, Tiyari and Hakkari. These tribes (as Dr. Aboona likes to call them “independent Assyrian Tribes"), were the last vestiges of autonomous Assyrian rulership. With their demise, the forgotten Assyrian Genocide then began and continued from the 19th century into the 20th century.

Dr. Aboona is a very warm, approachable and kind gentleman who is greatly respected and sought out when accurate information is needed. It is our hope that this will be his first of more lectures to come. His diverse wealth of knowledge and far-reaching travels to the Middle East, bring fresh insights to topics that are crucial to understanding all things “Assyrian”.

ACSSU of Canada always brings the Toronto community new and exciting lecture topics and lecturers. To be informed of upcoming events, we implore you to visit our website at www.acssu.ca


A report by: Sargon J. David
ACSSU of Canada, Public Relations


Guess what Diri our next lecture is This Sunday and a Kurdish Proff will be presenting...ill keep u up to date on what is going on icon_biggrin.gif
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Israelite_
post 05/13/08 07:17 PM
Post #46


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QUOTE(Danno @ 05/13/08 06:03 PM) [snapback]122439[/snapback]
I got the info from a lecture i attended in Mississauga by Dr. Aboona...


Achoni,
Where exactly is Mississauga? icon_smile.gif
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Danno
post 05/13/08 08:37 PM
Post #47


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Joined: 03/21/07 05:38 PM
From: Hamilton Canada
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Conflict/Cultural/Country Interest: I am Assyrian and I am interested in Assyrian Independence (Nineveh Plain) Kurdish Independence, Iraq War, Iraqi Civil War, Kurdish Vs. Turks, and Turkish involvment in Iraq and Kurdistan



QUOTE(Israelite_ @ 05/13/08 09:17 PM) [snapback]122443[/snapback]
Achoni,
Where exactly is Mississauga? icon_smile.gif


Its in Assyrian Society of Canada

I'm in a university student group ACSSU (Assyrian Chaldean Syriac Student Union) (I know its a mouthful) and that is usually where everything happens actually cause its in between Toronto and Hamilton and good for everyone icon_biggrin.gif
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King Ashurbanipa...
post 05/30/08 12:17 AM
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God bless all our people and death to our enemies and dividers. smiley13.gif

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Kurd-BOSS
post 05/30/08 03:06 PM
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QUOTE(King Ashurbanipal @ 05/30/08 01:17 AM) [snapback]122796[/snapback]
God bless all our people and death to our enemies and dividers.


Amen or Ameen


That picture is quite a famous one.
Back in the 80's there were a lot of joint Kurdish-Assyrian squads which ultimately destroyed a lot of Baathist compound,
I remember some nephews of me were also in a division consisting of Kurds and Atorayas.
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Tough_Armenian14...
post 05/30/08 07:46 PM
Post #50


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Group: MEIC Conversion Group
Posts: 48
Joined: 05/29/08 12:32 PM
From: Yerevan(the capital of armenian races since 3000 B.C)
Member No.: 3,595
Conflict/Cultural/Country Interest: Armenian national socialism,Armenian racial seperatism.
Pan european national socialism,white brotherhood between caucasian people.





lol

2 countryless nationalities fighting about stupid clothes...

how funny.

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